Ok I'm just going to say it because I know that at one point in time all of us studying Islam have thought this:
Hadiths suck.
Yeah I said it! Hadiths have caused me an unbelievable amount of stress. It seems that no religion can go without some corruption. People changed the Bible to fit their needs and misused it to fulfill the vendettas of certain people. It was wrong to do so, but they did it anyway. Hadiths, to me, seem to be the corrupt portion of Islam. Since the Qur'an seems to have gotten through unscathed, people had to taint something. They always go for a source of power; what better source than the words of the prophet. When I first started studying I use to come to My Love fuming over hadiths that condemned women or told muslims to kill non-muslims. I was irate. “You cannot possibly believe this!” I would say to him to which he would reply “I don't. If it disagrees with the Qur'an then don't worry about it.”
Now that philosophy has been helpful, but its not that simple. You can't simply ignore every hadith you disagree with because some of them are ingrained into the practice of Islam. There are a slue of hadiths that are so imbedded the prophet himself would not be able to change them. A lot of them blatantly go against the Qur'an, but people continue to follow them and the scholars sure haven't tried to change anything.
It just goes to show you can't believe everything you read. The issue is where do you draw the line? At what point can you say “Ok, I do not agree with this but I am willing to accept it.”
My best example is the dog issue. I bawled like a hysterical child when I learned I would not be able to have a dog as a muslim. I love dogs. I want a dog more than I want a child. They are wonderful animals, so loving and generous. Even now I am thinking of my dog who I loved with tears coming to my eyes. She was my family. I miss her so much.
The hadiths against dogs are rather ridiculous. I recall the one that mentions if you hear a dog barking a jinn is near so beware. Ok, beware because the DOG IS WARNING YOU! It doesn't say the dog brought the jinn! I just don't know how the dog became the evil bringer of Satan. I hate these hadiths, they seem so against the character of the prophet and of God.
Here is a website that shows how these hadiths go against the Qur'an
http://www.submission.org/pets/dogs.html
When I learned this I almost quit right then and there. I wanted nothing to do with a religion that fully believed these things about the amazing animal that is the dog. But as I learned I realized that these hadiths are heavily saturated in cultural practices and may in fact not be related to the messenger at all. Here in the west I get “Yeah I like dogs but we can't have one in the house. They are dirty and make our homes unclean for prayer. But I totally like them.” Most in the west seem to not have the hatred for dogs but would not own one out of fear of them being dirty. I have a feeling they have no clue why they can't have a dog. My Love sure didn't know until I told him.
I know that if I ever become a muslim I will not be able to have a dog. If I ever marry, there is no way his family will ever approve. Most likely they are terrified of dogs. Even if I never married I still couldn't have one because the community would shun me for owning one. They certainty would not want to enter a home that angels could not enter. Heaven forbid.
And this is when you get to the part of “disagree but accept.” In the end what is more important? I have not gotten to the point of acceptance yet. I do feel that finding a religion that brings me closer to God is more important than me owning a dog. But I will NEVER agree with the horrible treatment of dogs that some muslims condone. Nor will I ever agree with those hadiths. I may never learn to accept it.
“If it disagrees the Qur'an, it disagrees with Islam”
Peace Out.
Posts
I have a dog *shrugs* and I'm so happy to have him. He's always been an outside dog though (because he's massive hehe), so maybe it's different.
ReplyDeleteThank God I have him, too, because that means that every man who comes over (M's friends) have to call him first and they don't just pop round all the time because they are scared of him hahah! Most of them though have actually started to fall in love with George (my dog). I remember one of M's friends coming to hang out with him just so he could take George for a walk! It's pretty funny lol.
One of the main things with dogs in the house is they prevent angels entering.
ReplyDeleteI will have a dog.... but it will be kept outside! as simple as!
I personally think the dog thing is ridiclous and blown out of proportion. Like you said, the Hadith often contradict the Qur'an, either literally or in spirit, and this has been one of my biggest problems as a Muslim. Where do we draw the line, like you said? We can't simply reject Hadith we don't like and accept those we do (like many Orthodox Muslims do), but I can't bring myself to accept all of them either.
ReplyDeleteI was just talking about this issue with the Muslim chaplain at my college. We both really like dogs, and we were complaining about the fact that there was such a huge stigma against dogs by Muslims. Dogs are part of ALLAH's creation, so it doesn't make sense to think that dogs are evil or so unclean that they should be killed. The chaplain said that we don't eat pigs and that they are considered unclean, but that doesn't mean we have the right to kill them or treat them badly. There is the one hadith that says how a prostitute's sins were forgiven because she gave water to a thirsty dog (i.e. was rewarded for kindness to an animal).
ReplyDeleteFor me, I am at the "disagree but accept" stage. I may not like the fact that dogs shouldn't be kept inside the house, but I don't want to take the chance if the hadith that angels not entering a house with a dog is sound. And ultimately, if obeying ALLAH and the Prophet (saw) requires some sacrifices, then I'm okay with that, since this world is just temporary but the Hereafter lasts forever.
On the bright side for dog lovers: in Jannah, we are allowed to have animals from this world with us, so Insha'Allah if I go to Jannah then I will definitely ask for my beloved dog Sidney to be my companion!
Such thoughtful responses :)
ReplyDeleteI think angels enter houses with dogs, houses with pictures (that are not idols) too. Unless, of course, Angels are afraid of dogs....
Yes the "loop hole" so to speak is that you can own a dog if he lives outside. Now that dog is suppose to be a guard dog only but I have heard of many muslims keeping them as pets. I wonder if this will be one of the things that slowly changes as Islam moves more into the west where dogs are an everyday part of life.
I know dogs are outside animals but I would worry about him living outside lol.I know, they are MEANT to live outside, I suppose I'd have to get use to that and buy him a cozy dog house.
It was so weird when we went to Damascus earlier this year. I am used to seeing dogs a LOT in my neighborhood, but over there I saw only ONE dog the whole two weeks we were gone! And that was in the Christian neighborhood where we stayed. My Muslim friend acted so funny around that dog and I remembered Muslims don't really care for dogs so I told my husband to distract it so it wouldn't bother Samer. :) We were in the internet café and the dog was coming around us for some love.
ReplyDeleteAnyway....good post!
Well, I think the whole dog thing is ridiculous and crap, but thankfully, it's not my problem, and never will be. :) *cuddles dog who sleeps with her*
ReplyDeleteI'd be...okay with it if Muslims didn't use this as an excuse for cruelty to the animals (and I *know* it's not all Muslims). There're just people who don't like dogs, and while **I think those people are nuts, I have a live and let live attitude with 'em. It's when you hurt them or threaten them and their owners (who aren't Muslim) that I want to beat you with a pipe. But to be fair, I feel that way about *everybody* who's cruel to any animal....
*coughs**steps off crazyrantygirl shoebox*
As for hadith, the whole thing made my eyes cross the one time I tried to figure out how they were sorted and ranked. And then, depending on who you talk to (I'm not sure if this breaks down just along fiqh lines, or scholars too, probably both), ones that are considered strong can be considered weak to someone else, and then they contradict the Qur'an, and/or each other...
Oh, lemme just say, cause I posted and it probably doesn't come across right in the post, you shouldn't be threatening dog owners who *are* Muslim either, I just meant that a nonMuslim dog owner is just...well, frankly, we don't *care* why you don't like our dogs, we are in no way expected to follow the same rules that Muslims are, so it makes absolutely no sense for you to even think about our dogs. They're not your problem, and you can't even couch it under 'giving us Islamic advice', cause, again, we don't care. It's not our problem. You are our problem.
ReplyDelete(obviously, you, not being LK, or anybody else that I know, but the Muslims who do this sort of thing)
Amber - I get you. In every walk of life there are those that go to the extreme. I too love animals and will never accept cruelty. I would run and save a dog while wearing an abaya and scarf! I don't care because that is one of God's creatures and it deserves respect and care. If I found a hurt dog I would take him into my home and help him. Because that is what you do. You help God's creatures I don't care what some hadith says.
ReplyDeleteO_O Now I'm ranting LOL. Take very good care of your adorable doggie
I loooooove dogs so much. I am so happy with one child and I think she is enough for me. I wouldn't feel incomplete without another child. But I think I'd feel incomplete without owning a dog eventually.
ReplyDeleteMy husband wouldn't let us have one in the house though for sure... He doesn't like dogs much at all and of course it's because of these hadiths. grrr. He entered my parents' house like normal when they had the dog, but it was obvious he wanted her away. I think he's more comfortable visiting there now that she's gone even if he had kinda gotten used to it. I miss that dog... we had her since I was 8 years old and she meant so much to me.
Anyway, I agree that overall, hadiths are corrupted. There are for sure some that really came from the prophet and for sure some that were invented and attributed to the prophet. If I so much as say I don't believe in a hadith, my husband accuses me of hating the prophet. He doesn't understand that I don't believe they even came from the prophet. So annoying. Infuriating even.
If there's a hadith I personally disagree with, I find out where the proof is in the Qur'an for this thing, and I try to figure out if they just twisted the Qur'an verse to suit this hadith or if it's really what it's saying. I don't want to not believe hadiths I don't like and keep the ones I do either. But it not only needs to not contradict the Qur'an for me, it needs to have a basis in the Qur'an.
Candice - I do the same thing. I check with the Qur'an before I decide I don't agree with the hadith.
ReplyDeleteI hate to say it but this might be the advantage to being taught by a Shi'a. A lot of the hadiths that I have issues with are not directly from the prophet and seem to be only connected with the Sunni school. Shi'as do not follow the book "Muslim". So a lot of the things I bring up I actually would'nt have to worry about if I stuck to the Shi'a school.
Fortunately or unfortunately, I make it more difficult for myself and study both LOL.
The nice thing about the Bible, in particular the New Testament, is that it clearly teaches that no physical factor outside of us can make us ritually or spiritually unclean. Only the evil content of our heart, as well as any evil deeds that may arise from same, can make us unclean. Which means that we can have any animals we like at home. And even say our prayers with that animal lying in our lap.
ReplyDeleteI will not believe that an animal is unclean which keeps God's commandments better than any human I know - is completely, impartially loving of all people, even to the point of showing that love to the one who holds the keys to the food closet so to speak, even when the food is not forthcoming. My cat has actually done this for me - he may be yowling with hunger, but if I don't react, he'll come and see why I'm not getting up from the couch to feed him. And if it's because I have a splitting headache and am in too much pain to do anything but lie there and hope the pain goes away soon, he will forget his hunger. He will lie down next to me and keep me company until I feel better. I am 100% sure that if he were able to fix food for us, that he would even fix food for me and bring it to me - and then fix some for himself and his feline companion. But since he can't do that, he does what he can - and I am 110% sure the Lord will reward him handsomely for it.
Just like I am sure He will reward handsomely the cats of a certain old lady who were found lying on top of her, keeping her warm when she fell on an icy sidewalk in front of her house and couldn't get up. By the time the police found her, it was evident they had literally saved her life by doing so.
And I am sure He will also handsomely reward the dog that risks its own life to save a drowning child, or a person who is caught in an avalanche in the mountains.
These animals are clear evidence of what Muslims call fitra - that natural, inborn sense of what is right. They very clearly have that fitra. Indeed, in those situations where they take specific actions to comfort or save lives, they not only are no barrier to the presence of angels - they are themselves angels. Ones sent by God to accomplish that task. And I will not believe they can be unclean, no matter how much fur they leave on my clothes :)
Caraboska - That was beautiful. I completely agree. I dunno what I'm going to do. It makes me wonder what other things like this hide in the hadiths....
ReplyDeleteA Jinn.What is that?
ReplyDeletehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genie
ReplyDeleteIts kinda like a demon but sometimes they can be good...most of the time they are not. Also known in some cultures as a genie, but not the 3 wishes kind exactly lol
LK, There are other things in the ahadith that might bug you, not so much about animals, but about women... And I have only a very passing acquaintance with a few ahadith. There are no doubt others, on other subjects, that would have you scratching your head too.
ReplyDeleteAnd to return to what you were saying earlier... Who the **** cares what other people think about it if you choose to keep a dog, even indoors? If you know why you believe it's the right thing to do, then that's their problem. They don't have to visit your home if they don't like it.
I'll tell you something. My beloved once told me he likes cats, but wouldn't want to have one at home. Probably for cleanliness reasons, knowing him. But let's say we remained just friends for a bit too long, and I'm not going to make my decisions about whether to keep a cat based on whether he likes it, but on whether it is the right thing to do.
The kitty I describe above came to live with me at a moment when we both had managed to get pneumonia, and he was living outside. The infection had also affected other things besides his respiratory tract. Somehow he managed to drag his exhausted, feverish little body into my lap, and when I looked into his poor inflamed eyes, all I could say to him was, 'Man, you are not sleeping outside tonight...'
And my beloved knows I have even two cats now. See, I found a cute little girlfriend for my kitty later on, when he grew up. He was already the size of an adult cat when we met, but now he's just plain huge - enough so that I think he has to have been a mere 3 months old that first evening I came home from rehearsal to find all of my neighbors fussing over him in front of my apartment building - and he was just lapping it up, fussing over all of them too...
I am sure my beloved would not dream of asking me to give up my kitties. Indeed, he would be highly annoyed if he found out I had refrained from having cats just to please him. Which is one reason I like him. Now, if he doesn't want to live with cats, maybe he won't marry me. Which is fine. Why should he be miserable living with creatures he just does not want under his roof? But I still quietly hope that he will manage to fall in love with not just me, but them as well...
Oh I know about those hadiths too. But they are either A) So against the Qur'an its not even funny or B) can actually be taken to mean something else and are actually not meant to attack women. Most are the A option though. The bible has a bunch of them too so for me its not so much that they are there, its whether or not people follow them. Most of the problematic verses of the Bible against women are not followed in modern culture. They may bug me, but they aren't consistently followed by every Christian so I don't worry so much. But just like these verses, these hadiths seem placed in there to fullfill someone's vendetta and it sure doesn't seem to be the prophet's.
ReplyDeleteDogs are a huge social issue in Islam. No one would ever come to my home if I had one inside. Certainly no muslim man would marry me if I insisted on keeping my dog inside. Many are irrationally terrified of these animals. I'm hoping that will change one day, unfortunately it will probably not happen in my lifetime. Islam is stubborn :)
Yet I'm not exactly sure why cats are ok. Yes they are cleaner but they still can track germs from their litterbox all over your house, shed on all your stuff, and leave messes if they "forget" to use their box. And they walk on your counters ICK! Although I'm sure I will have a cat one day, but he will not walk on my kitchen counters no way!
LK - are you sure no one would come to your home if you had a dog? I've never had any problem in terms of people not coming because of my dog. And M is a muslim man and he is fine living in this house. I actually think that he loves George more than I do. So are you sure a muslim man wouldn't marry you? Maybe that depends on the culture he's brought up with but I think that if a group of Saudis (probably taught the most crap hadiths out of all Muslim cultures in the world) can warm to a dog (who is really big and is always smelly because the poor boy has an ear infection that will probably last the rest of his life) then there would be many other Muslim men who would agree to marry a woman with a dog.
ReplyDeleteEllen - well Im not sure they would come over if the dog lived inside. Outside would be no problem.
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure. I base the marriage issue off of My Love. He knows his parents wouldn't approve so we couldn't have one. They'd freak out and never want to come to our home. At the same time, he doesn't have a clue as to why he is not suppose to have one. His experience with dogs is kind of limited and I live in a place where very few people own dogs that are over 5 pounds LOL. All he can say is "They are dirty" in a small, unsure voice. He is totally cool with having an outside dog. But not inside. I would think that a lot of men would feel similar to the way he does, especially if the parents live near by.
My Love has a friend who went through this exact same issue before converting. It was one of his major blocks. I am hoping in the future I can sit down with him and discuss how he came to accept this fact and moved on. He is now a very happy muslim :).
LK, Can I say something to you? If you read the whole Bible - not just the parts that might come up, for example, in a word study of the word 'woman' in the New Testament - you can come to VERY different conclusions. Did you know that both parties to a marriage are required to be subject to each other out of respect for the Lord, that no one is permitted to lord it over anyone, and that anyone who does not wish to have a submissive attitude, regardless of gender, is working for the devil? That each party has (equal) authority over the other one's body? One very small implication of that is that they are required to sleep with each other on demand. But it seems to me that it means each one in principle has the right to expect obedience in all things lawful from the other. For that matter, the New Testament also teaches that all are required to lay down their lives for each other - this being explicitly pointed to as the ultimate love. They are required even to love their enemies. They are to follow the example of Jesus, who laid down his life for his enemies.
ReplyDeleteIn other words, God expects exactly the same things from both parties, to such a degree that those passages which indicate some sort of difference can't possibly mean any kind of one-way 'spiritual authority' relationship at all.
The only thing it can be referring to, for lack of anything else, is the fact that in the times when the New Testament books were written (in the 1st century CE - not later), both the Greek and Roman civil law codes gave men the power of life and death over their wives and children.
In other words, any male authority being referred to is merely temporal. And what Paul is doing is counseling how best to live out the Bible's teaching about the *real* relationship between man and woman in such circumstances.
Especially in a Greek context, there were many restrictions on the conduct of women. There was much more of an expectation that 'a decent woman (in particular, married woman) stays at home' than in the Roman cultural sphere. Evidently there was also much more of an expectation that 'a decent woman covers her head' or 'a decent woman, if she is out and about, should in general keep quiet'.
The alternative - walking around uncovered, or with shorn hair, talking and debating with men, prophesying in public with uncovered hair, etc. - was synonymous with giving the appearance of prostitution and idolatrous worship (all the more so that the Greek religion of the time included elements of religious prostitution).
So that there was a huge concern for public decency that meant certain limitations had to be observed. Just like if you are in an Islamic country, you refrain from spending time alone with men, you wear hijab, etc. if you are at all interested in making clear that you are a decent woman. Even if you are not a Muslim.
But none of this has anything to do with the spiritual relationship between men and women. And this is why I view the New Testament as the most egalitarian of all the monotheistic religious texts. This is why, even I myself cover, I view it as voluntary and having zero to do with 'feminine submission' - only as a voluntary personal reminder of the prayerful lifestyle I have chosen for myself.
PS If you get a cat, the only way to keep kitty off the counter is to keep kitty out of the kitchen, period. Just like you will not keep kitty off the coffee table - especially not while you are sleeping. You just accept this and get on with your life. It is part of the natural charm of cats :)
ReplyDelete@ caraboska. I have the same advice for you. Have you read the thousands of books of hadith? or the books of hadith that all the major scholars agree are authentic? No? I think you should.
ReplyDeleteHadiths study is a complex one because it requires knowledge of the time frame in question, who were around, who recorded it and what was going. There are hadiths that are authentic and occurred before any legislation came down (like in makkah) and allow for certain things that are now no longer valid because later when legislation came down (like in medina). I have been taking my own advice and I am in AWE of the large collection.
Caraboska - thats an interesting chunk of info but I have no idea what it has to do with this post. My Love's advertion to owning a dog is by no means him controling me and in no way is about the Qur'an or hadiths telling him to control me. In fact, most of what you described is in the Qur'an as well. Every time a woman mentions that her husband or boyfriend doesn't want her to do something does not mean she is submitting to him without her free will or is being controlled. He doesn't want a dog in the house, its that simple. Just like if he was all "I want a motorcycle" and I said no. He isn't submitting to me or being controled, he is just saying ok because he knows I have a great dislike for motorcycles and respects me. He knows how much stress and grief it would cause me so he chooses not to own one.
ReplyDeleteThe Bible has its issues just has the hadiths have their issues. All religions have issues. Lets leave it at that.
Tuttie, I am convinced of the truth of the Bible. And no doubt my Catholic friends would tell me that I should study Church tradition, for more or less the same reasons that Muslims study hadith.
ReplyDeleteBut just like Islam has its 'Qur'an-aloners', Christianity has its 'Bible-aloners'. They are called Protestants. You could say I am one of them. But really, I go even a step beyond them. I am a Quaker in all but the name, so that I protest even against Protestantism!
So, I do not even study Christian tradition. I only study the Bible. It alone is the norm and measure for my faith and practice. What would be the logic behind my studying hadith, if I do not even study tradition (supposedly) proper to my own faith?
I think Tuttie means if you are going to comment on the unreliability of a portion of someone else's faith you should at least have an understanding of that aspect prior to criticising it.
ReplyDeleteLK, I was referring to your mention (in passing, but nonetheless) of 'problematic verses against women' in the Bible. I was attempting to cover in my comment those items in the New Testament in particular which are normally viewed as 'problematic' or 'against women', and show that the teaching of the Bible in its present form is in fact not problematic or against women at all. Of course, my interpretation is far from traditional, but I think I've made it clear elsewhere in what measure I take tradition into account in matters of faith. I have been a Christian for nearly 30 years and for my own personal use, I now read the New Testament only in the original language. (The only time I read it in any other language is if I need to discuss it with someone who does not know Greek). So I do have some idea what I am talking about.
ReplyDeleteLK, Tuttie, whoever, I was not taking a position on the reliability of hadith. I was merely noting that there are items that could leave someone scratching their head.
ReplyDeleteI understand your need to defend the information in the Bible.
ReplyDeleteI'm not asking about the Bible, I'm asking about hadiths in this post. Covering both is frankly enough to make your head explode with info overload.
LK, If this is supposed to be about hadith, then I don't understand your reference to 'problematic verses against women' in the Bible or see why it was necessary. As you can see, I was evidently distracted by it, or you wouldn't have felt the need to write your most recent comment :)
ReplyDeleteSo no one misunderstands me, if I talk about the Bible anywhere, people are free to do with the info as they wish. They may believe it or not, as they see fit. My interest is, above all, in making sure that an accurate picture of its teaching is presented, if that teaching is going to be mentioned at all.
Do as you wish
ReplyDelete@caraboska what LK said
ReplyDelete"I think Tuttie means if you are going to comment on the unreliability of a portion of someone else's faith you should at least have an understanding of that aspect prior to criticising it."
is what I meant and I could have phrased it less confrontational. sorry about that.
I wasn't trying to convert you as that it is IMPOSSIBLE since God has the hearts of the people and only He can guide.
I am convinced my way is right and you are convinced your way is right. I think religion is a personal matter that people will probably never agree on and that is fine seeing as God is the one that will ultimately judge amongst us. We will all know the truth once we die.
Tuttie: Well said. Live and let live I say!
ReplyDelete