The Stoning of Soraya M comes out March 2010. I suggest watching it, I am going to myself. It covers the story of an Iranian woman wrongly accused of adultry. Her husband blackmails her because she will not divorce him so he can marry a younger woman. So instead, he decides to get her killed so he can remarry (Crazy or what!). Made by the same studio as Passion of the Christ, it is based off a real life event in Iran and practices that still exist in the Middle East today. A perfect example of the misuse of Islamic law.Bad part is, the West sees it AS Islamic law and thinks this is permissible in Islam. It is not. And being the same studio as Passion of the Christ a distinction that it is NOT Islamic law is not made. According to reviews I have read, the movie stresses that this is done through Islamic law. Sad.
Watch, learn, discuss.
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To be fair, the only examples that we have of 'Islamic' governments are those that claim the title: Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, etc. While, yes, if you talk to a Muslim (every Muslim I've ever talked to anyway), they'll tell you that the governments are not Islamic, still, most people will never have the chance to talk to a Muslim. Or, rather, they'll never make the opportunity.
ReplyDeleteThat being said, isn't the stoning of adulterers commanded in Islam (*thinks its in the Qur'an, but isn't certain*)? I get that in this case, she was innocent, but stoning *is* a prescribed punishment, is it not? And, yes, I am aware that there are supposed to be, I think it's four witnesses, and where's the other half of the 'afair'? He should be getting stoned too...I'm also aware stoning is called for in the Bible. I'm not pointing my finger at Islam in that sense, merely saying, while in this instance this is a miscarriage of law, the scenario itself, an adulterer (should be two, of course, but very rarely is) being stoned, is not.
I personally have yet to come across any verse that commends Stoning for adultry in the Qur'an but I do remember the verse in the Bible (and I think its in the Torah too). But I have heard about it and the understanding is that the verse was interpreted poorly to allow such actions. Its more of a governmental law.
ReplyDeleteFor some reason this "law" seems to only apply to adulterous women, not men. Men do not get stoned for adultry. What I do know is the religion does not condone this action.
Stoning for adultery is not in the Quran, it's in the hadiths. The Quran prescribes lashes for adultery. It's one of those Quran-hadith contradiction things.
ReplyDeleteI don't get it, why couldn't he divorce her? She wouldn't have to agree to divorce under Islamic law would she?
Sarah: Im not sure. She refused to agree to the divorce so the only other way out was for her death. I also think her husband was crazy. I have to watch the movie, my info comes from clipping many articles about the DVD release at work.
ReplyDeleteRight, I went and looked it up. Apparently, the Qur'an calls for 100 lashes (which, depending on how those're done, could kill you anyway). That's in Surat an Nur - which also includes the fact that if there aren't four witnesses, the husband can swear four times his wife's an adulteress, but if she swears back the same number of times that he's a liar...it doesn't count? No one gets whipped? I think. It says 'and it shall avert the chastisement from her' which I assume means no one gets whipped.
ReplyDeleteThe stoning apparently comes from hadith, ones that, to my understanding, are accepted as authentic. Umm...Sahih Bukhari Book 8:817 is the reference I see referenced most often. According to that, there *was* a verse in the Qur'an that presribed stoning for the male & female adulterers, but it got lost. There's no explanation in the hadith for what happened to it, just 'Umar saying that it was there, they used to recite it, Mohammed used to stone people, and he doesn't want people to forget that part of God's law, just because the verse isn't in the Qur'an anymore. I'd past it in here, but for some reason, it won't let me paste in the comments. *frowns*
That being said, I know you have issues with hadith personally, but I'm just putting it out there. That's where the stoning thing apparently comes from.
Amber: I've never heard of Muhammad stoning people. Thanks for the info. Sigh so many issues.
ReplyDeleteThere're stories of it, apparently, in the hadith. There's even something about him stoning a female monkey that had committed adultery because all the other monkeys were doing it, but that just seems so silly I kind of hope it's not one the 'authentic' hadith even though it's in Bukhari.
ReplyDeleteHadith doesn't trump Qur'an, though. If the Qur'an says that it's lashes then stoning is *not* the correct form of "punishment". I don't see how there could be an *authentic* hadith stating the opposite because, as I said, if it goes against the Qur'an then it cannot be authentic. I don't know if this is recognised in Sunni schools of Islam, but also in Shia Islam you can't have something made right and then wrong - so if it wasn't in the Qur'an, it is not valid for Umar to say that it was supposed to be or whatever. That doesn't prove anything, in my opinion anyway. I would also assume that those hadiths re the Prophet stoning female monkeys are then not authentic as it is not the correct practice.
ReplyDeleteIf the Qur'an (which it does, like you mentioned Amber), also says that a woman's punishment is foregone if she swears 4 times that the husband is lying then that means again that punishment is not to be used.
Also, the four witnesses - they have to actually SEE it being sex. Sorry if this it TMI but they need to see the man *going inside* the woman, which is nearly impossible unless you're next to be the bed. I don't know why but that always gave me the feeling that that's God's way of re-itering what Jesus (as) said re casting stones - that you'll never be able to accuse a woman because in most circumstances you'll never see the event.
I know that's a rose coloured glasses view but that's just how I see it... I do want to see that movie though :)
How could an authentic verse of the Quran be lost? I thought it was all intact, fully preserved? Surely Bukhari is wrong!
ReplyDeleteI really want to watch this movie but I have heard it won’t be released in the ME :( Maybe
ReplyDeleteI’ll try to find it in Scotland.
@LK, I think I would argue that stoning is an Islamic form of punishment. Since stoning was a Jewish form of punishment (hence in OT as well but discouraged by Jesus) I believe there is every possibility it came into Islam as well.
@Susanne, I would disagree. Quran being perfect and complete is another long argument. What is authentic hadith then if we keep rejecting hadith as inauthentic? All problematic ahadith are dispelled by Muslims as inauthentic. I once posted something on the Kiss of Judas and included a hadith in that post about the murder of Kab on the orders of Muhammad and someone emailed me to say the hadith is inauthentic! A hadith that is found in Bukhari, Muslim, Tabari, Ibn Ishaq is inauthentic because it hurts our modern sentiments. I think we as Muslims should stand up for our history rather than reject it. The early Muslims were far more comfortable in their skins and followed the laws set up by the Prophet.
Stoning hurts our modern sentiments. That is why we are quick to reject it. The story is that the verse on stoning was written on a leaf that was eaten by a goat and never made it into the Quran but it abrogated the verse on lashing (Musnad Hanbal. vol. 6. page 269; Sunan Ibn Majah, page 626). This view is supported by Bukhari, Muslim, Abu Davudi Hanbal, Ibn Maja.
@LK, Muhammad himself is reported in several ahadith to have stoned couples (Sahih Bukhari: 2:23:413; 3:49:860; 3:50:885; 3:34:421; 4:56:829; 6:60:79; 7:63:195; 7:63:196; 8:82:805; 8:82:809; 8:82:806; and Abu Dawud 38:4426).
Wanted to add that I think we are influenced by Christianity – I’m referring to this:
ReplyDeleteThe teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him. But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground. At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?” "No one, sir," she said. "Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin." (John 8:3-11).
I know many know this but it is for those who haven’t read it. Is anyone ever sinless other than Jesus? Quran and Bible both call him sinless. Yet he didn’t punish the woman either. BUT, the lesson is different here. The lesson is mercy and looking into your own souls Vs social condemnation. The lesson is to protect women and change them through positive reinforcement, not punish them.
The lesson in Islam is to control social vice Vs quick mercy:
Narrated Abu Huraira and Zaid bin Khalid: Two men had a dispute in the presence of Allah's Apostle. One of them said, "O Allah's Apostle! Judge between us according to Allah's Laws." The other who was wiser, said, "Yes, O Allah's Apostle! Judge between us according to Allah's Laws and allow me to speak. The Prophet said, "Speak." He said, "My son was a laborer serving this (person) and he committed illegal sexual intercourse with his wife. The people said that my son is to be stoned to death, but I ransomed him with one-hundred sheep and a slave girl. Then I asked the learned people, who informed me that my son should receive one hundred lashes and will be exiled for one year, and stoning will be the lot for the man's wife." Allah's Apostle said, "Indeed, by Him in Whose Hand my soul is, I will judge between you according to Allah's Laws: As for your sheep and slave girl, they are to be returned to you." Then he scourged his son one hundred lashes and exiled him for one year. Then Unais Al-Aslami was ordered to go to the wife of the second man, and if she confessed (the crime), then stone her to death. She did confess, so he stoned her to death. (Sahih Bukhari 8:78:629)
In Islam a man is NOT responsible for someone else illegitimate child and adultery has every possibility of producing to a bastard child who would end up being the responsibility of an innocent man. Why should he suffer and raise the child of his wife’s sin? That is why the source of the sin – the woman who is able to bear the child – should be stoned to death. It controls social vice.
I agree that in theory four people should witness the “act”, but there are ahaidth which show that such did not happen always. People were punished even without witnesses. Now imagine today’s world when we don’t need witnesses but modern science can and does prove if two people have had sex. Should we still wait for four witnesses to see the couple having sex?
All imams punished adulterers and I can’t believe that they were the kind of Muslims who would disregard the teachings of the Quran and the Prophet and act maliciously. Remember that it was the same Omar who kissed the Black Stone because the Prophet kissed it.
@Amber - I burst out laughing at that monkey story - let's hope that didn't really happen!! It seems a bit... hmm.
ReplyDelete@Ellen - I used to think Quran trumps hadiths. It seems a natural assumption, words of God over words of man. But how do we know that's how Muhammad saw it? How do we know he didn't consider himself to have every bit as much authority in his own sayings? To me the only way to reconcile why hadiths add so much to the Quran, is because he had that authority. Either that or the extra practices were just pre-existing things that carried on. But it seems very unlikely to me that huge volumes of hadiths are fabricated. Although some of them sound kinda funny...
@Achelois - the "goat ate it" story made me laugh too!
Sarah told me that the stoning was only for married adulterers whereas lashing was for non-married ones. So maybe it wouldn't have been an abrogation.
The part in the Quran about adultery is very appealing I think because it's really about slander. It came about because of the slandering of Aisha, so its emphasis is very much "you can't prove anything happened" and "slandering is a punishable offence". It ought to produce a society where no-one need worry about anyone talking badly of them... sadly doesn't seem to work that way.
But yes, adulterers were punished it seems. And when I think about it, it would most likely be a husband accusing his wife, and if she was guilty, she most likely wouldn't swear by Allah that she was innocent because she would fear the wrath of Allah for that. So I can imagine people *were* punished for adultery.
The question of whether society should punish and in what way is a hard one.
ReplyDeleteGrowing up I probably thought the aim of the justice system was not punishment, but just the protection of society from criminals by locking them up, determent from crime, and rehabilitation of offenders. I didn't think it was our responsibility to "punish" each other.
We are certainly pretty soft on criminals in the west these days and it does colour how we look at historic punishments like stoning.
Recently I heard a lecture from a guy who's doing research on how communities cooperate, by doing computer simulations. He found that punishment was needed as one element of a successful cooperative community. This got me re-thinking things a bit. But it was only a simplified computer model and someone else might come out with a different result.
My heart says, I prefer Jesus on this one. My head on the other hand needs to think some more.
In any case, since we have paternity tests these days, arguably stoning for adultery should disappear.
WWR, I too agree with Jesus with my head and my heart. Murder - maybe different; adultery leaves you with psychological trauma but I personally don't think it deserves death. But who am I?
ReplyDeleteIs it bad that the only thing I catch is that I have an issue with a prophet who is willing stone people to death when God preaches mercy?
ReplyDeleteYep...not a good week.