Ladies, enlighten me. I have heard a couple different answers to how engagements work in Islam and I was hoping someone could give me some credible info. I know that you are suppose to go into an engagement with the intention of marriage but I have a feeling its often used like dating, hense why the engagement ring does not seem to be popular in Islamic culture. It seems to be dating with commitment, a concept so foreign to most Westerners. Its so much like courting, rather than dating.
Is it the intention of marriage that makes it different from dating in a western sense? Because you are going in with the intention to find out if you want to marry this someone that's what makes it an engagement?
I have also heard of people having their Nikah and then waiting months to even a year before they hold their Walimah. Now I could be wrong but this is my understanding: You are not technically married till after the Walimah, but you can function like a couple who lives together until your Walimah. If you decide to separate you technically did not divorce because you never completed your marriage. Another loop hole? Someone I know has a brother who waited almost a year between his Nikah and Walimah. His now wife and him lived together for the entire time in between ceremonies. Originally, I thought the Nikah was merely an engagement ceremony.
I have heard three scenarios:
1) Even in engagement, you have to be monitored all the time with your significant other. You are never left alone even in public. Its really no different than the initial stages of getting to know the other person.
2) Once engaged, you can function like you are dating. You can hold hands, go out together without supervision, converse freely with each other etc. The only thing you are not allowed to do is be left completely alone together for obvious reasons.
3) The minute you are engaged its a free for all. It works exactly like dating, you are free to be together alone and in public. Its just like Western dating.
I'm so confused. Please help. I want to know what I'm getting myself into LOL! If anyone has any books or websites to recommend please do. This concerns me not only for myself but if I ever have children. I'm not so sure I like the way Islam tries to control this element of human nature and its views on falling in love (which are not favorable).
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From what I've heard, engagement doesn't technically exist in Islam... but maybe just not how we practice it. Like in KSA, the majority of people get "engaged" to a girl - which means they literally get married legally with all the paperwork, but they don't live together. Depending on how strict the family is, they see each other + spend time together and wear rings. The wedding party is after that (sometimes a year) and it depends on when the groom has enough money to pay for it really. So the "engagement", I guess, is like having the nikah and waiting for the walima. The nikah is the legal part, though.
ReplyDeleteOh I see. Yeah it definitely doesn't work that way here LOL. But I think what you said is how it is intended to work for the most part. But here in the US, muslims seem to go through a couple of stages. The American Muslim generation seems to be wanting to do things as a hybrid of the American tradition and the rules of Islam. Like an extra step 1) Getting to know you 2) Ok, I know you, I think this could work lets be engaged. In this stage they may go out with a married couple on a "date" or something. And they would look into making marriage plans. 3) Get Married.
ReplyDeleteIts really confusing. I think it has good intentions but I really don't understand how you can get to know someone with other people listening in looking over your shoulder all the time. I'm sure a lot of people get to know each other through email. There are a lot of questions I would not want to ask in front of my parents or his lol.
But don't get me wrong, Western dating is super flawed.
My Syrian friend's brother was looking for a wife during Ramadan. The way I understood it, he would go with his mom to many girls' houses. If he liked one they would talk a bit and then he would propose. She was then free to accept or reject his offer of engagement. Then if they got engaged, they would be allowed to go out in public by themselves, but not anywhere they would be alone and get into potential compromising positions. During the engagement which most likely would lead to marriage (there is that intention from the beginning), they would further get to know one another. IF they realized there is no way they would be able to survive marrying each other, they would break it off. But if they found out they would be fine together, they would later marry. I don't know the particulars about a nikah and walimah though. Is one a legal thing with the state and the other a religious ceremony like we'd have a wedding at church, for instance?
ReplyDeleteI heard of one Syrian who legally married a person at the Damascus Embassy so he could get his visa to come to America where his fiancee'/wife lives with her Syrian family. However, the girl later said she did not want to raise her children in Syria so they thought they might break the engagement. Not sure how that will turn out, but it seems legally they will have to be divorced if they decide to not fully marry. Kind of weird to divorce after not being *really* married Islamically, huh?
My understanding is limited. What you just discribed seems to be the way things are done in the US and this seems ok to me. Its supervised dating.
ReplyDeleteMy understanding of the nikah and walimah is that the nikah is essentially the wedding where the two are bound by marriage law. The walimah completes the wedding and celebrates the new union (I believe you have your wedding night after your nikah). But you are not fully married until you have your walimah. I believe a lot of people sign their marriage license or some sort of marriage contract during the nikah. I do not know why they often take place 6 months to a year apart from each other. I would want to have my nikah one day and the walimah the very next.
I really need to do more research.
Couples here seem to do it the way you want to, LK - decide to marry, get engaged (in the way that non-Muslim couples get engaged), get to know each other a bit more while lightly supervised (e.g. chatting alone while in the parents house when they're in the other room or something) and all the families going out together so everyone knows each other. Then the nikah is done during the day (you're right, it is the legal signing of the papers) or night and the walima is right after that - like for us, a wedding and a reception. I like that idea better to be honest but I do understand waiting for the walima - like in KSA, it costs thousands and thousands and the new couple might not have that yet. But they are still married, it's just without that big "I'm inviting every person in the city for a party so they know I'm married" kinda thing.
ReplyDeleteIt's nice, talking about this! It does make me wonder if you're going to be announcing something soon though ;)
The Nikah is the official marriage bit like signing the register that you are married and this isnt necessarily legally married in the eyes of the law... sometimes you need to go to the registry office in order to make it legal by law. But in the eyes of god, Nikah is all you need :)
ReplyDeleteMany people arent registering the marriage until they can afford the big ceremony and also so they can live together.
I think engagement isnt practiced as much as in the west as parents in the west dont necessarily save for their Sons/Daughters wedding and considering the costs, its more important to save and have a good wedding rather than rush it and have one not quite as good,
Hope this helps!
Thanks again ladies for your advice.
ReplyDeleteEllen: Nope not anytime soon. But after seeing all these not engaged couples that have been together for 7-10 years over the weekend I figured I'd bring up the fact to My Love that I'm not a big fan of long engagements :) That and everyone I know is either getting engaged or married LOL
And then of course I got curious as to how it traditionally works in Islam.
For me its going to be religion first, marriage second. Once I figure out what I need from religion, marriage can be considered.
I have no advice, I just gotta say:
ReplyDeleteYour title almost gave me a heart attack! I read it at something close to 2am this morning and almost fell out of the bed! :)
Amber: Why heart attack? Do you really think I would not tell you all if I got engaged and I became muslim :) trust me you all will know...it will be in really big print LOL
ReplyDelete*grin* I think, mostly, it was the 2am thing that factored in. :) My brain gets a bit funny when I've had that much caffine and no sleep.
ReplyDeleteBefore I *read* the post, I thought this was the announcement! :)
Haha nope no announcement. Would be nice but one should not rush things like religion and marriage *Le sigh*
ReplyDeleteBut my curiosity has been peaked so I might ask Sister A how it works. I am of marrying age after all, perfectly logical question :)
Why do you feel you have to go along with all these traditional practices? It seems to me that culture is an enormous part of things like this.
ReplyDeleteAs long as the intention is to respect ourselves and go for maximum commitment before getting too involved, I don't think it matters whether we follow tradition.
If we don't follow tradition, it takes a bit of thought about how to do it. Even as a practicing Christian I followed my culture too much when it came to dating and I made my life more difficult than it should have been. So I would do it differently if I was single again, but not necessarily following a religious tradition.
All religions uphold marriage as the ideal. But I don't believe there's only one acceptable way to get there.
A lot of these practices are considered Law under the Islamic tradition, not just cultural practices. Most families follow these rules so if I were to have a child they would be expected by any suitor and his/her family to follow them, even if I was not so rigid. Also, My Love's family would expect us to follow these rules of conduct as well.
ReplyDeleteIn my case, it has to do with parents. His family will want it done "right" and my family would want their version as well. Frankly, getting married for me will be quite a mess and most likely involve 2 separate weddings to make everyone happy. And yes, you can tell me its not about everyone else but the truth is it is about everyone else especially the mother of the bride. if it were up to me, Id have a little ceremony with a few people and be done. But that is not the way it works.
I don't think engagement is Islamic. I mean, there is for sure a time between a man and a woman before they get married that they figure out that they want to get married, but the engagement ceremony is a sort of innovated tradition in Islam as far as I know. I think it just confuses the people, because they are no more married than they were before the engagement so nothing should change in their behaviors with one another.
ReplyDeleteI think two people who want to get married should meet others who want to get married who fit into their basic criteria and from those people who overall want the same things, should get to know the person on a more personal level. I don't think it's les Islamic to get to know the person for real than to just get married with the most religious person you find without taking anything else into consideration. I don't think that to get to know a person is going against Islam. To do it the Islamic way, a person shouldn't be alone with the members of the opposite sex, including a person they are considering for marriage, but I don't think there is anything against holding a conversation about likes and dislikes and other things like that.
I'm with you though, about there being some things I don't really want to talk about in front of my parents or my husband's parents that I might want to know about my potential spouse, but I think another chaperone might do the trick (like a sibling or something). If it's something so naughty that you would only say it to your potential spouse, then maybe it shouldn't be said until marriage.
Oh, and about nikah and walima, if I understand it correctly, one is legal signing, and one is the ceremony and should be done right after the other normally. In my case, I've been married for almost 4 years and we have a child, but we have not made the ceremony yet... I consider it a marriage though. We are in a committed and public relationship with each other and have made the nikah.
ReplyDeleteI do wonder if one can combine the Walimah and a western wedding....hmmmm....
ReplyDeleteI agree with Candice, I've seen nothing to suggest engagement - or any rules around it - are an original practice in Islam.
ReplyDeleteI see why you might need to go along with some of these things for cultural reasons though. I wasn't realising that's what your post is about!
In Algeria the courtship phase is exclusive, so perhaps that is the phase that might be described as "engagement" (although marriage is not certain at the start). There's no change in the level of relationship when they decide to go ahead and get married. Not until they actually get married can they be alone together or do any kind of touching! lol.
It sounds like there is a lot of cultural variation in this, from reading the other comments.
As far as Islam goes, I gather the nikah is the ceremony in the mosque (which is really just creation of a contract and giving of dowry), and walimah is the party or wedding reception. The legal signing of the register is often done separately unlike in church weddings.
You could totally have a western-style walimah. One option would be a western-style civil wedding (the legal part) with walimah/reception on the same day, doing the nikah at the mosque a few days beforehand or something.
To add something positive as a final thought... mixed-culture weddings can be great fun! We incorporated aspects of both cultures in ours, and several people said it was the best wedding they'd ever been to. It was small and simple and... original... lol.
P.S. Most Muslims seem to believe as Elizabeth said that the nikah is all you need to be married in the eyes of God. So the walimah and legal part are sometimes done quite a bit later, this is often the case with converts whose family need time to get used to the idea of the marriage.
ReplyDeleteI would explain it all better but that would mean devulging somewhat private information on a pubic forum. Would be a good post for my non-existent private blog. Its really quite complicated both fincially and with the parents. His parents will want one thing, mine another, and we just want to get it over with LOL
ReplyDeleteOh my parents would want the legal marriage ASAP so they know he can't leave me LOL
The hard and fast rule is that you should not do anything unchaste before marriage. THe other rules are there to help maintain that rule.
ReplyDeleteEverything else, is by and large negotiable.
Love is totally allowed, the histories show that many many people fell in love (including the Prophet pbuh) and married for that reason.
Jasmine: Yes I always thought the way the Prophet (PBUH) married would be the best. To marry your friend who you love and care for. How you could ask for anything more?
ReplyDelete