But what about the other way around. What if you join a religion because of the community? Is that acceptable and justifiable?
Most will say a flat out no. Its not. So why does it work the other way around? If someone truly loves a particular community why should that not justify their conversion? This could even apply to those who convert to marry. If you love the community, love the worship, love the people, love the way of life then it seems plausible to me that converting will make you very happy. So why is it then that if someone converts for these things its considered to be in poor taste?
I'm actually not sure myself. The more I study the more I think community can be a good reason to convert. Community is religion is some senses. One of the main reasons a person chooses an organized religion is because they want to belong to a community. Otherwise we would all go on our marry own ways. They want to belong to something. So community should have a huge impact on conversion. And since the only absolute truth is God it should not matter what you choose. So if it makes you truly happy, brings you closer to God, then what is so wrong with choosing based on a community?
Thoughts?
Posts
I don't think anyone should leave their religion because of the community of the religion’s followers. I have always treated such people with suspicion. Yesterday I was reading a blog of a woman who converted from Islam to UU saying she has nothing against Islam and everything against the Muslims and I thought hmm, why leave Islam then?
ReplyDeleteAnd I also don't have anything against people who convert to a religion because they like its community although to me that is a juvenile decision. I mean personally I think Hindus are a lovely bunch of people. I like the way they worship together and enjoy their worship, and I like their love for peace and education through academic excellence. I like their love for social work and their reliance on strong brotherhood. This doesn't mean I agree with their religion; nor can I ignore the misogyny and caste system that Hinduism brings with it. Changing or adopting a religion is a life-altering decision; how can a community bring me closer to God if I have doubt that the religion they follow is not from God? Plus, what if I like another community even better tomorrow?
But I guess it all depends on what the person really wants. I was referring to those who choose organized religions that preach they are from God. But for those who don’t believe in the superiority or authenticity of any one religion, I guess it doesn’t matter since any religion they adopt will bring them happiness and closeness to God if they like the community.
I also don't think someone should leave a religion because the community sucks. If this happened a lot in Islam I think a lot of people would have left. That said, it is hard to distinguish between religion and it's followers, because how do you know they aren't right?
ReplyDelete"What if you join a religion because of the community?"
I think that's understandable, to be honest. Many people convert to Islam because they meet amazing Muslims or they live in amazing Muslim communities, and it is just a way to find out about Islam in a positive light. So I don't see anything wrong with it.
Achelois: I know a lot of people like the person you just described. That is why I thought to bring up this point. Most people I know who left Christianity left for one or both reasons: 1. They do not believe Jesus is God. 2. They had really bad experiences with the Christian community. They will maybe mention Jesus isn't God as a reason, but their focus will be on how the community let them down and they became instantly disenchanted with the religion.
ReplyDeleteI agree that no matter how much you like a community you have to believe in the religion to follow it. I think the Buddhist religion is amazing, the community is amazing, but I can't follow a polytheistic religion. So even though I love the community I can't be a part of the religion.
I know a couple people who converted to Islam and hated the community. So while they practice, they do not involve themselves in the community. I think it would be hard to go the other way around: involved in the community but not practicing. I am that right now and its been fine. But it won't be fine forever. Eventually you have to start practicing or you need to get out. At least, thats how it feels.
I think if you really believe in a religion, then no, you shouldn't abandon it because of the community. But the community can certainly cause you to question whether you believe in it or not! And if the answer is, actually, I am not convinced that this way is the right way or the only way, then leaving is understandable.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you, when it comes to religions with creeds that you have to sign up to, you basically have to believe in it. And community can be an acid test of that!
But when it comes to religions without set creeds, such as UU or Quakerism or Baha'i or Sufism, I think the question is then much more about community, i.e. is this a community I feel comfortable in, does it share my values, do I like the activities, will it help me in my spiritual path? If I join a religious community again, I think it will be one of these non-creedal types, and I think it will be for those sorts of reasons rather than belief.
Wrestling: I know what you mean. Oddly enough, I think I need a religion with creeds. Because honestly if not Islam I have like a couple of options left, and they don't really give you a community to belong to. And I'd like a community, I've really enjoyed being a part of one. Its nice.
ReplyDeleteBut yes when there isnt a set creed then the religion is about community. But often times its hard to find a community without a set creed.
I went to the cinema this afternoon and guess what I walked past? A UU church!! I think I will go next Sunday and see what it's like.
ReplyDeleteNot very long ago I needed creeds too and wouldn't have been interested in something like this. I am quite shocked at the change in me :)
I actually think that choosing based on loving the community is fine *but*, the belief needs to be there. I know that I have become more frustrated with *muslims* because of the community that I interact with here... but then it comes back down to belief. As Sarah said, when you've got schools of thought that can be practiced spiritually as opposed to by the book, then community definitely plays a large part.
ReplyDeleteYou said in a previous post that good and bad comes from human kind and religion and I think that can be applied here, too. Some communities are great, some are bad - that might weaken one's faith or it might even strengthen it.
Wrestling: OOOOOOO let us know what its like! There is one here too I'm sooo curious.
ReplyDeleteEllen: Thats a good point. The community can weaken and strengthen your faith. I know the muslim community here strengthened my opinion of Islam. I am waiting for that to backfire. Its so sad, I'm waiting for them to turn out mean and caddy like they seem to be everywhere else.
LK, on Friday someone converted to Islam to enter my family. This is the fifth conversion in my family and each one was based on love for the community and not necessarily for the Religion. Therefore, I understand what you mean.
ReplyDeleteAchelois: Yes you see what I mean. But most will tell you that is a wrong thing to do...but is it really?....I do not know
ReplyDeleteIf you believe God can only be found in one set of beliefs (one "religion") then you'd be foolish to choose anything with eternal consequences based on *community.* What if the community is wrong??
ReplyDeleteHowever, if you believe there are many paths to God, does it really matter which community you join in order to follow one of those paths?
I'd say no. But that begs the question if God has one (or two or three) ways to him and thus Islam, Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc. are all valid OR does God have only one way to Him and if you follow people you may be wrong? Follow God or follow people? I think this is the (much) bigger question here.
Great topic!
Susanne: but to follow God you do not need to belong to an organized religion. Its a bit more complicated than one organized religion being "correct" or "incorrect" and following God. Its not really one or the other. Maybe by joining the community you ARE following God....
ReplyDeleteYes, true. I wasn't saying following community was right or wrong. Merely that following God is the best choice .. whether that is within a community or not.
ReplyDeleteSusanne: Definitely true :) God is the only truth and the best way to go.
ReplyDeleteLK, I wanted to add that my husband was my first example of Islam - when we were first together, I was definitely very curious about his faith and the commitment he had to it. Obviously I didn't convert (still haven't lol!) because of him, but he still plays a large role in me being attracted to Islam. So once I am sure in my belief, then yep, I will have converted both because of that but also because of the examples I have seen.
ReplyDeleteSooo after all that lol, I agree with you and Susanne about following God whether you're in a community or by yourself.
Ellen: Yes you know that is the thing. Sometimes its that person that leads you to the religion which leads you to God. So yes in the end your conversion has something to do with that person but isn't the main reason. I consider My Love an insentive, a perk if you will, but not my reason to convert. If that makes sense.
ReplyDeleteAchelois, I did not leave Islam simply because of other Muslims. A lot of it has to do with Islam. Islam treats women like children with no brain. I'm not sorry that I couldn't rationalize that to myself any longer.
ReplyDeletesorry to hijack!
Anisah
Ok Ok let us not start a screaming match here. Anisah, I think Achelois was just trying to give an example Im sure she didnt mean any harm. If you truly believe Islam treats women like children and that upsets you so greatly that you can no longer follow the religion then I don't think anyone here is saying your decision is without reason. We all have our reasons, no one has the right to tell another their reason is not good enough.
ReplyDeleteWe have to be so careful not to worship creeds or communities, much less individual people. These things cannot be the ultimate reason we are joining a particular religion, or else we are committing idolatry.
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry, didn't mean to do that, LK. Just was surprised to see someone talking about me lol. They weren't bashing me, I know that. But I was just trying to say that I had many reasons for leaving, among them other Muslims.
ReplyDeleteAnisah: I just wanted to make sure you didnt feel attacked :) And welcome to the blog btw
ReplyDeleteI think it's all about what the religion is... Some religions are what their members do and believe in... I think UU falls into this category, as do the sects within big religions like Sunnis in Islam or Catholics in Christianity. So I think that a person who is a UU but somehow doesn't like the community would have no reason to stay. You can believe in all they stand for and not be UU. And a person who believes Jesus is the son of God and in the Bible can be nothing else than a Christian, but if he disagrees with his church, he can leave the denomination. So he's leaving his religion for community reasons, but it's not a conflict.
ReplyDeleteBut how can a person believe in Muhammad and that the Qur'an is a message from God but not be part of Islam? I think that in the case of Islam, Islam is NOT its members... It's really a system of beliefs that you either have or not. Same as the overall Christianity. We all know there are different opinions on what is a necessary belief in a religion, but if we base it on the beliefs of the person leaving... A person believing in what they think is Islam and then leaving the the community... It makes no sense to me.
A Muslim needs to leave Islam because they don't believe in Islam.