In Islam you can have women Sheikhs. Their roles function almost the same as men except they can't lead congregtional prayer in a mixed setting (bending over in front of men is a no no) or when they have their period. I was fine with this until I thought:
Wait. Half the time we, the women, cannot see the Sheikh. So technically the woman Sheikh could lead prayer on the women's side and the men just wouldn't be able to see for once. You don't even need to be a Sheikh to lead prayer, anyone can do so.
I have yet to find anything that contradicts this being ok other than men simply wouldn't like it. We no longer pray in spaces where men pray in front of women. We now have separate spaces, separate rooms and often the women only can hear the prayer leader, but not see him. So why should it matter if the men can't see the prayer leader? In this type of secluded setting shouldn't it be ok for a woman to lead mixed congretional prayer?
I would say yes. So its interesting that I've never heard of anyone doing this. Rarely do I even see a woman speaker speak to a mixed audience. Are the men trying to keep us from rising to their level? Are women just not interested? Or have women excepted that they cannot do these things because that is what they are taught?
Now of course some mosques are equipt with cameras so the women can see. Or better yet, a divided with a front area that is open so the prayer leader can pray in the middle, in view of both parties. So I suppose the arguement could be that if a man leads everyone gets to see if the mosque is equipt properly. But it still makes me wonder.
I'm not sure but I'd love to hear what you all think.
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Ooh, great questions!
ReplyDeleteYou know, I got the book 'No god but God' since you've been writing such interesting posts on it! :D It's actually really great!
Apparently, Umar instituted mixed prayers? And if it wasn't what the Prophet himself did, how was this sanctioned and still kept?
I don't agree with the segregated areas, and if they were to keep it as such, then I'm all for women Imams,
Men should stop hogging all of the Spiritual power and give up the majority already :/
I'm pretty sure it's more of a power thing than a religious one. But that's just me.
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ReplyDeleteOops, I meant to say "segregated prayers" instead of mixed. And the book also claims he was a misogynist? (Umar) (that deleted comment was another typo!)
ReplyDeleteAt Muslims for Progressive Values prayers, women often lead the prayer.
ReplyDeleteThe problem is that there are Muslims out there who consider a woman's voice to be part of her awra, especially if it involves anything even vaguely resembling singing. So that many believe women should only even recite Qur'an in front of other women, much less anything else...
ReplyDeleteLK, I vote for you to be the women's prayer leader in your mosque! Great idea you've written about! :)
ReplyDeleteModest Justice: Yes that information on Umar also appears in "The Messenger" and was spoken about by one of my teachers. He was not a fan of women and it seems that he spent a lot of time undoing the equality that the Prophet created. For shame.
ReplyDeleteZuhura: Welcome. Wow thats really cool!
Caraboska: I think that is another example of men twisting things to work for them. Because our awra is suppose to refer to our bodies adornments (Breasts, curves, sometimes hair). men have awra too and it sure doesn't refer to their voice. Maybe it should, a man who can sing is one of the sexiest things. Like, speak softly actually means to speak kindly, not literally softly or not at all. Plus the same line is also addressed to men in a different section.
Men have this compulsion to bring women down. They must be greater, only God knows why they are like that. But they will never let us be equal.
Susanne: HAHA I have a long way to go before I could do that. Maybe someday, God willing.
I often wonder why it's not okay for men to see a female's behind but it's fine for me to see a male one? Sorry if this is TMI but I think women are just as much as likely to see a "behind" as attractive as men lol. It's very sad that things are thought of this way now though - the original Muslims didn't pray in separate buildings, you know? Faith was the more important thing.
ReplyDeleteAnyway. I completely get what you mean. I've seen quite a few women speaking to a mixed audience but I also think that those women would be capable to lead the prayer. Khamanei says that women should only lead women - I think that can (and should!) definitely be extended to women leading women but also men if they are separated. There are a few rulings though that say that if a cleric (i.e sheikh or mullah or something) is available then you shouldn't pray behind a "regular" person. Also, you can do a congregational prayer behind a "regular" person if you wish but you don't use the same intention - you are just following them, so it's not so much praying in a group. SO *deep breath* lol the woman must be a sheikha or possess the knowledge that a sheikh has regarding the prayers.
Honestly, if a man told me I couldn't lead the prayers because of my voice and I had studied enough to, then to hell with him. I don't believe that it matters what gender one is. It's about their education and their understanding - and I wish that many Muslim men would get that!
Ellen: I agree. Yes they usually say the most knowledgable present should lead. If that happens to be a woman than so be it. In fact at the school I think the most learned is a woman LOL.
ReplyDeleteI'd just like people to try it. Although I've still not been able to figure out why a woman isnt assigned to lead the women's side when we cant see the sheikh. I think that would be helpful.
I'm pretty sure it's about men not liking it, not about God not liking it.
ReplyDelete"I have yet to find anything that contradicts this being ok other than men simply wouldn't like it."
It's really sad how many things we can apply this to!
And there are many women out there who want to do it. Take Amina Wadud, for example, who led prayer twice. She got criticized to death for it but she didn't see herself as doing something wrong and so she went ahead of it.
Also, if a man can't control himself DURING PRAYER because a woman is bending down in front of him, then that's HIS problem- why do women need to be separated for men for that reason? Ugh it really annoys me! Women are always in the back or in some kind of corner, and the reason given is always the fact that men can't see a woman bend down.
Great post!
cairo lusaka amsterdam: Totally agree. If a man cant control himself during prayer that should be his problem not ours. But even in the Prophet's time women prayed behind men or to the side. I think that was for comfort perhaps. I really wou'dn't want to pray infront of them Id be uncomfortable lol. But if it doesnt bother a woman than I really dont see the problem. In the mosque I attend the prayer leader doesnt even stand directly in front. He is off slightly to the side so we arent staring at his butt but can still see :)
ReplyDeleteSad thing is I highly doubt we can ever completely fix this but we can take baby steps. We can take them by asking to read du'a during congregational prayer. If people are reciting ask to be involved. We can invite women speakers to the local mosque. Baby steps to get more involved may just bridge the gap.
The church changed when women just decided they were going to be involved. For a long time the only thing women were allowed to do was sing. Then they started to want to participate in the readings. I remember the huge controversy about girl alter servers. Took forever but the church finally allowed girls to serve alongside the boys. It takes persistance but change can happen. If the Catholic church can change so can Islam :) We just have to be firm and persistant.
I don't find it ideal to not see the person doing the khutbah. It's a bit annoying. I can tolerate it though. So I think men could tolerate not seeing the woman leading the prayer. But it still wouldn't be ideal, I think. It's a possibility that I wouldn't consider "haram" or completely inappropriate, but just not quite perfect.
ReplyDeleteIdeally, everyone would be able to see the imam, with this person in front, and because of that, a woman wouldn't be leading... I guess the woman could do the khutbah while being in front of the congregation... And go lead from the woman's section. A bit awkward to have a woman leading prayer from the middle of a room though... The two room situation would be better than that, but I just don't like the idea that men and women have to be separated. So I feel it's a better option to just always have men leading prayer in mixed groups, and having an open room where everyone can seen. And women having other roles... Including khutbahs, I could hope...
Candice: No you have a good point. Its awkward to have a woman lead in that kind of setting. But I see no reason why she cant do a khutbah or hold a mujlis in mixed company, providing she is properly dressed :)
ReplyDeleteAlthough the young men need to learn not to wear tight polo shirts and fitted jeans when reading in front of women too. Its distracting LOL
LK,
ReplyDeleteI find this all very interesting. :)
(Should I not mention that I don't approve of female altar servers?)
I'm not sure how I would feel about women leading a mixed-group prayer, but if it's all women then that's totally fine (heck, I lead the prayers sometimes for my Muslim Students Association at my school, but we are an all-women's college :D). Khutbahs, du'as, basically anything that isn't salat or melodious recitation of the Qur'an (recitation in a normal voice is fine) I think is fair game for women to do. After all, ALLAH has said that we are spiritual equals, so we should be allowed to do the same things men do as long as modesty is not compromised and as long as it's not going against the Qur'an and sunnah. Seriously, if men get excited by a woman giving a khutbah (just a normal khutbah in a normal, non-provocative way) then he needs to learn to control his nafs. Same with women; if a woman fancied the guy giving the khutbah and started to become excited despite the guy not doing anything provocative, she also needs to remember to lower her gaze and control her feelings.
ReplyDeleteAmber: Can I ask why? :)
ReplyDeleteAnne: Why do you think we should not be allowed to recite Qur'an as beautifully as the men do? Why should we recite flat and in an unflattering manner while the men may show off their vocal skills? My awra is not my voice thus I think I should be allowed to recite just as the men do.
You know what? I'm not really sure why I think that. I guess I'm just echoing everything I've heard, which says that women can't recite beautifully in front of men because it's too much like singing, which can be provocative. But reciting Qur'an is not in the same vein as singing, not even close.
ReplyDeleteI just found this on Sunnipath.com, a reliable website:
"The voice of a woman is not considered `awra, so it is permissible to listen to her voice as long as fitna is not feared by it, for then it becomes haram. As for her raising her voice to recite the Koran in the presence of men who are not her mahram, it is not haram according to Imam al-Ramli, but it is disliked out of fear of fitna. Al Khatib al-Shirbini disagreed with him and said, 'It is haram, by analogy that it is haram for a woman to raise her voice to call the adhan (call to prayer) in front of non-mahram men, as he expounded in Bushra al-Karim ( 1/76, 60).' So for this reason, it is surely better for a woman to lower her voice in front of non-mahram men when she is reciting Koran so that she does not enter into difference of opinions.
Amjad Rasheed"
So I guess that there are differences of opinions; it's better not to recite beautifully in front of men, but it's not forbidden to do so. I think that I personally would be a bit shy to recite in front of anyone, even women.
I like the way Sikhs do it. Men and women sit on different sides of the room but without any barrier, and it's relaxed - I accidentally went up the men's stairs and no-one stopped me. Men and women can both lead the prayers.
ReplyDeleteWhen the leader goes into sujood, surely the congregation are supposed to follow and go into sujood, rather than stand there and look at the leader's butt in the air? I'm not sure it's such a valid reason to keep women from leading. I think unfortunately when you teach men that they can't control themselves, that is what they will believe (and live up to).
Re women reciting, I think the argument against it is that verse that says "do not speak in an overly-soft voice" incase it provokes lust in men with diseased hearts... but that was addressed to Muhammad's wives.
LK,
ReplyDeleteNo one who is not ordained belongs in the sanctuary or near the altar. Women cannot be priests or deacons, or subdeacons, so they cannot be ordained. Therefore, they don't belong in the sanctuary.
And, just to be fair, it's not as though I'm picking on women - I don't believe that *any* layperson belongs on the altar.
Amber: I agree, in the Catholic church a layperson does not belong at the alter. Prodestants do things differently. However, alter boys are laypersons :)
ReplyDeleteSarah: Yeah its an excuse. They've been taught they do not have to control themselves. Its up to families to change that.
LK,
ReplyDeleteProtestants don't have real altars, so the point is moot.
Hmm...I was under the impression that altar boys were a part of a 'minor' clerical branch while they served. Or am I demanding Orthodox rules for Catholicism again...*wanders off to look*
Yep. Apparently that's what I was doing. Altar boys, where they're used in the Orthodox church, are considered a part of the minor clergy and are permitted to enter the sanctuary, though not to touch the altar, or anything on it, or the prothesis without a special blessing. They are not allowed to touch the sacred vessels, the chalice or the diskos at any time. They're not allowed to stand directly in front of the altar, or to pass in front of the altar, between it and the iconostasis - if they need to move from one side of the sanctuary to the other, they must cross between the altar and the High Place.
Amber; yeah I think thats Orthodox because Ive seen the alter boys do some of the things you mention. Or they just arent aware they arent suppose to.
ReplyDeleteI also dont recall any kind of ceremony for becoming an alter boy. And if girls are allowed to be alter servers they are probably not considered part of the clergy of the Catholic church.
What makes their alters fake? Ive never heard them referred to as such. just that they weren't used quite the same way as Catholic ones. They have a slightly different meaning.
LK,
ReplyDeleteYeah, that's what I was doing. It's something I've been doing accidentally recently. :)
I don't know that I'd term their altars 'fake', even though I said they didn't have 'real altars'.
Most Protestant churches that I've been to don't have anything resembling an altar at all. They have a space at the front for the preacher to speak from, the band to play at, the projector screen, what have you, but there's no altar. Since they don't have anything even vaguely resembling Communion (most of them pass out bread and water/grape juice, but it doesn't mean the same thing at all) there's really no need for them to have an 'altar'. So, the non-liturgical Protestants don't have anything at all.
The liturgical groups (Lutheran, Anglican, Episcopalian), have altars, but since they lack valid orders, their pastors/priests can't sanctify the space. They don't have relics of saints in the altars. They're not *real* altars, as opposed to being 'fake' altars, if that makes any sense at all...
OH Ok. The ones I went to had alters and communion (Well bread or things like the host). Lutheran, Episcopalian are like Catholic lite lol. They do things almost the same. Almost, but not quite.
ReplyDeleteNo I get what you mean I just never thought of them that way. I knew that they didnt have relics and such. Although I bet prodestants would argue that they can sanctify a space I can see exactly where it would be understood that they cannot.
I am always so fascinated by what you know :) I've forgotten a lot in the last few years. All the Christian stuff has kinda meshed together in my head :). I have trouble separating Catholic from Prodestant at times since I spent my more recent years looking into many prodestant faiths. They all mushed together too lol
UU's have women priests :D
ReplyDeleteBut in all fairness I have led prayers many times as a young Muslimah - for women only.
Yea, but UU's have woman priests :D
Teehee Achelois. I didnt know that UUs had a type of service. Fascinating.
ReplyDeleteI'm a UU and a Muslim. We do have female ministers (but I don't think anyone calls them priests, male or female), and have for decades. Also gay men and women serving openly as ministers. UU services are a lot like Christian ones, except that the sermon may draw on any religious or secular source.
ReplyDelete