TAKE SOME RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOURSELVES!
I've officially had it with all the excuses Islam gives for male behavior. HAD IT. ENOUGH. Its BS. Men need to start taking some responsibility for their actions instead of bringing us down so they don't have to try.
If a man cannot control himself for a few minutes while a woman recites Qur'an then he has a HUGE problem. Do men really have that little self control? Can they not control themselves while a woman speaks about Islam? Does a bare forearm or a wisp of hair cause that much excitement in a man that we must suffer clothed head to toe in 100 degree heat? If they can't, if they really can't, then they need to see a psychologist ASAP because something is seriously wrong with their mental workings. COMMON PEOPLE. I cannot be the only person who sees how ridiculous this is!
Im so tired of all the excuses made for men. Its majorly keeping me from making a decision. I'm tired of this misogynistic BS.
And what are we as women doing about it? Nothing. We are just accepting that this is how it is. Ladies, before you accept something that keeps you from participating in your religion ask why it is so. You may be surprised that the men don't really have a good answer, and most likely the women won't know. The Christian women started to ask, the men couldn't find the reason, and now they participate by reading the Bible in church, singing, and sometimes even leading the entire service (except in Catholicism and Orthodox and probably a few others).
Think about it. What would Zainab do? What would Fatima do? What would Aisha do? What would Khadija do? Would they stand for this kind of treatment?
I think not.
Posts
AMEN! I think Muslim men especially have too many "outs" at the expense of women. It's like they don't take that whole "lowering your gaze" thing to heart so women have to do alllll sorts of things because men are lustful animals. Makes me sick.
ReplyDeleteThe last post I wrote was on Women & Jesus. I quoted from a rabbi who said many of the same things about women that Muslims do today. It's amazing how alike the Muslim men are with the ancient Jewish rabbis. Sadly the Muslim men (some,not all for sure) haven't evolved and still live in the 1st century BC in their thinking of women.
Annoys me for y'all. :(
It was one of the things that annoyed me about Islam, that while there were rules for men and women in regards to modesty and actions, only the rules for women were enforced, and if a man was tempted by a woman, then it was 'her fault' for doing something 'wrong'. *rolls eyes*
ReplyDeleteThat being said, you know I disagree with this part 'and sometimes even leading the entire mass'. Women cannot do that. If they attempt to, it renders the Mass invalid - only people rebellious from the Church do such a thing, and by their actions take themselves out of the Church. Female 'priests' do not exist. There are female leaders of Protestant churches, but that is all.
Also, Susanne, you know that author who quoted ben Sirach just took the 'surface' meaning of the words, ignoring what was actually meant. That's what happens when you remove the Church from reading the Bible. You loose parts of the meaning.
Amber: I only meant Protestant Masses (or do they just refer to them as services? Ive heard both). Certainly that cannot happen in a Catholic church.
ReplyDeleteSee this isn't Islam's fault, its the people. If people could actually do what the Qur'an says we wouldn't have this problem. But alas, men have this compulsion to be higher than women and bring us down. Only we can change that.
i don't blame the men at ALL. NONE. ZILCH. The rules are there and the people who let them get away with is US WOMEN. I have had this SAME conversation with many women (not about Islam but why men are allowed to be promiscuous and women aren't).
ReplyDeletebackground:
my mom and many of my latina friends were complaining on and on and on about how men cheat and they have multiple sex partners (even in marriage and we are not talking about polygyny)and they would be considered a player and not a hoe like a woman would. So my brother (at the time) was in kindergarten and was "dating" two or three little girls in the SAME classroom. My mom's reaction? THAT IS FINE I don't have to worry about him as he can't get pregnant.
ME: THERE ARE WORST THINGS OUT THERE THAN HIM KNOCKING SOMEONE UP!! and that is a horrible example go talk to him.
Mom: she is not my daughter and when he is 18 I'll talk to him.
ME: then stop complaining that men are no good! You have an opportunity to change it and YOU AREN'T!
----
because let face it the people who raise the children are the WOMEN. The father's for the most part come in and out of the kid's lives. Who spends most of the time with the kids? us. WE PUT UP WITH THE HORRIBLE TREATMENT FROM HUSBANDS and the children are there to witness it. Since we are tolerating it then that shows to the children that we CONDONE IT. Because if we didn't we would do something about it.
Women CAN do something about it. I don't buy the bullsht that we are this delicate flower crap. If someone really believed in their convictions they wouldn't stand for it. The question boils down to how much you believe in your principles and if you are willing to die for them. Most of us naturally avoid confrontation and physical harm but that comes at a price, YOUR FREEDOM. The civil rights movement may have been a non violent one (for the most part) but many people lost their lives because they BELIEVED and had conviction.
My mom was beaten and abuse badly in one of her marriages but she taught us a valuable lesson SHE FREED HERSELF. She walked out and got help we suffered a little bit because we were broke for a while but she did it and was successful.
same goes for Islam we women go around reminding ourselves what hijab is and isn't but we don't do the same for men. Allah swt says to enjoin the good and forbid the evil. Apparently that only applies to us womenfolk.
Women have so much power both within Islam and in society as a whole but we squander it on our insecurities and inability to communicate effectively. Its funny as I was typing this I was upset because again a behavior that has nothing to do with Islam is being pinned on Islam but as I kept going on and on I realized this reminds me of the issues in supernanny. Most of the issues there are because the parent implements incorrect discipline or is not consistent with it. If men were constantly reminded and women wouldn't marry them or sleep with them or if they were horrendous DIVORCE them, they would change. (if they didn't what other options do they have? a prostitute? catch a disease and die and therefore eliminating themselves from the gene pool?)
We may not be able to change the world but we do shape our sons' view of the world, or our fathers, brothers, husbands, cousins, uncles and so on. If you are doing nothing to change it constructively then you are just part of the problem.
MASHA'ALLAH Tuttie! I agree with you 100% WE need to change. If we stop accepting this kind of behavior things can change. The men aren't going to suddenly wake up one day and go "I haven't been treating women fairly. Im going to treat them right now". WE need to take a stand. WE need to take our freedoms that Muhammad (AS) has given us! That Jesus (AS) has given us! That all the prophets and Allah(swt) gave us.
ReplyDeleteIt does start at home, with the mothers and the fathers. Teach you sons the right way and a lot of this will be repaired.
LK,
ReplyDeleteI've never heard of a Protestant service referred to as Mass.
Amber: huh maybe my friends are confused or its so engrained in my head. Anyway I changed it to service :)
ReplyDeleteAmber, so you think that man didn't mean anything against women and I took it out of context? Really, I am interested in knowing more about him and why he said such things. I hope you understand why I took them in a bad way since they seem so much like what Islamic scholars often say today about women. I guess I'm not a fan of Jewish rabbis who speak against women saying daughters are shameful or the source of shame.(Can't recall now which he is credited with saying.)
ReplyDeleteI've read where Jewish men thank God they aren't born women so it just leaves a bad taste in my mouth concerning these people sometimes.
The point of the author (Kenneth Bailey) was to show how the discussions of women had turned to "women are the source of shame" compared to the OT where Deborah, Ruth, Esther, the Proverbs 31 woman, Jael are spoken of with honor. Compare those stories to Ben Sirach's writings and it was just different. The author wasn't overly-critical of Sirach, just showing how women were depicted at that time to point out the society in which Jesus came...and how radical his actions were towards women. For Jesus to talk to women, allow them to touch him and not berate the prostitute for showing her hair in Simon's house was pretty radical for a rabbi of that day.
Hope that explains things a bit better. I appreciate your comment about Sirach so I could know the context a bit better! I apologize for calling him a "creep." I am too defensive of men saying such things about women, it seems. He may have meant well, but then you have people who use those same teachings to keep women down. The author grew up in the ME and lived there 60 years. I think his thoughts are pro-women likely because he saw the double standards present there and sympathized with the women who were held to higher standards than the men who had the power over them.
@Susanne I cringed when I read this "I guess I'm not a fan of Jewish rabbis who speak against women saying daughters are shameful or the source of shame.(Can't recall now which he is credited with saying.)" Because I live in an area with a heavy concentration of Jews and I never heard of this. It may be attributed to the ignorant of the bunch. I don't believe it unless its written and documented years ago. The historian in me wants primary proof (or secondary too) and the scientist in me wants to be told it was carbon dated or whatever it is they use to verify documents.
ReplyDeletetoo many forensic file episodes coupled with a mile case of ocd ;)
I'm really glad you posted this. I'm generally very vocal/aware of making sure that Muslim women know their rights and don't let men bully them around, but sometimes, mostly out of ignorance, I yield to the old "it's not proper/modest for women to do certain things". With reciting the Qur'an for example; I always thought it was totally haram to do it in front of men, but thanks to your post I looked it up and discovered that there was a difference in opinion about it. For a while I thought that only men could be scholars because you never see or hear of women scholars, but I did some research and found out that women are definitely allowed to be scholars (after all, one of the most knowledgeable people in Islamic history, Aisha, was a woman). I guess it just goes to show that Muslims shouldn't be so quick to label things "haram" for women to do unless they know for sure that it isn't allowed.
ReplyDeleteTuttie, I was referring to something attributed to a man who wrote years before Jesus lived, not nowadays. I'm sorry for making you cringe. :) I have nothing against Jewish rabbis or anyone. Just those who think daughters are shameful whether they are Christians, Jews, Muslims or atheists! :)
ReplyDelete(And I may have misrepresented this guy and I apologize for that if I did.)
:) We all need to do our research huh? Thats the beauty of knowledge, it opens so many doors
ReplyDeleteLK this is a *fantastic* post. Really. And you're right. The women you're talking about, Zainab (as), Fatima (as), etc, DID stand up for their rights. Exactly! You know all this but I want to repeat it anyway. Zainab (as) held the first majalis for Muharram. Fatima (as) gave a sermon after her father died. Aisha (as) passed on hadiths that were extremely sensitive! These are all religious activities in which females took the lead - so why don't we see that now? We need to take those examples, that knowledge, and harness it.
ReplyDeleteI think everyone is to blame, though, not just us women. You can be the *best* mother but when your husband is alone with your children, he might not teach them the best ideas. I really think it is disgusting how so many human beings bow down to rules that are based on fabrication upon fabrication.
I've still never figured out why women aren't allowed to be priests too :S Maybe that's why I was a Protestant before? Lol.
The Episcopal/Anglican churches are the only Protestant churches that I know of where you might come upon a communion service being referred to as a Mass. They mostly accept women priests - the important thing for validity of the Mass, from their viewpoint, is the apostolic succession.
ReplyDeleteYou will find MANY Protestant churches - most of those that call themselves 'Bible-believing', in fact - that do not permit women clergy/service leaders/preachers. Never mind that Jesus taught that no one is allowed to lord it over anyone; that all are required to be subject to all out of respect for Christ; that anyone who does not want to have a submissive attitude, regardless of gender, is earthly, unspiritual and working for the devil; that there is nothing at all about ordination in the New Testament; that even in New Testament times women were permitted to at very least pray and prophesy in public (with their heads covered); and that the equality preached in the New Testament between men and women is so radical that any authority structure in marriage, for example, has to be seen as temporal (i.e. based in the civil law of the time, which did indeed did give men in both the Roman and the Greek legal systems the power of life and death over their wives and children).
I think that whole business of male authority in the Church falls apart when the above matters are taken into consideration - especially since the Genesis account does not teach female submission ab initio. If we look at the Scriptures as a whole, in fact, we can very easily come to the conclusion that that business after the Fall about men ruling over women is not a prescription, but merely a predictive description of the effects of sin - in other words, social structures which have men ruling over their wives are symptomatic of the operation of sin and have their origin in the sinful nature!
And if we read Paul, we find out that this business of men leaving father and mother and cleaving to their wives and the two becoming one flesh has its consequences. Before marriage, your parents are your highest earthly authority. After marriage - your spouse. For women AND MEN. The reason for this is the oneness that exists between the partners to the marriage. So I would say that any man who refuses to acknowledge his wife as his highest earthly authority shows thereby that he never had any intention of true oneness with his wife and is therefore engaging in legalized fornication, not marriage.
This is all in the Bible, it's the most radical teaching I have found on the subject in any Scripture including the Qur'an. And it's one big reason that I find the Bible to be credible - the biggest reason being that I find the evidence cited for Jesus' actually having died and only after that risen from the dead and been taking up to heaven to be compelling. And as I was explaining to a Muslim friend recently, the fact that Jesus did actually die is extremely important to the Christian faith - because that death is seen as providing redemption to humanity that humanity cannot provide for itself, but that is nonetheless absolutely necessary for its salvation. And of course it is also important that Jesus be more than a mere human being, because no mere human being could provide such redemption. No mere human being can bear the burden of another's sins... And the resurrection is seen as evidence of the efficacy of that redemption, as well as of Jesus' being... much more than a mere man.
Not everyone is convinced by this, but I am and so I'm a Christian. And I 'play by Christian rules' with the men in my life. Few are able to deal with the expectations that will be laid upon them in a relationship with me. So I have remained unmarried for the time being. But that's another thing Christianity teaches - to be content with what one has :) It's viewed as part of true worship of God. Which is the main point to all of this talk about religion - worshiping God...
Caraboska: Thanks for the info. I agree with you a lot of the rules that the clergy of the past said they found in the Bible that made women "lower" than man were a product of interpretation and time period. All religions have this issue of men wanting to rule over woman. We just have to take our rights back :)
ReplyDeleteEllen: Exactly these ladies would not have put up with this and actually did the things Im taking about! But its true you cant control what husbands do. You just have to hope you are with a good man who agrees with the equality of women.
LK: Or at least make it very clear that if he isn't in agreement with equality, he is going to be one VERY unhappy man if he marries you :)
ReplyDeleteCaraboska: True that :) I dont think a man who didnt believe in equality could marry me LOL Id drive him crazy!
ReplyDeleteHmmm...interesting!
ReplyDeleteI really thing that men don't have *that* little threshold of controlling themselves... I mean, they're HUMANS! not animals! And every human being has the power to control themselves. Just that most men don't exercise that power! And they should be taught! Taught right from the start! by their family..and it all really begins from there..
Imagine, if EACH mother and father teach and raise their sons the way Islam teaches them to, without any crazy biases, they would inshallah grow up to be wonderful men, very different from the ones we see today...
LK, This is an excellent post and I so agree with you.
ReplyDeleteI have lived a long time amongst Arabs (and I’m part Arab myself) and I’ll tell you that just like Islam is not monolithic, cultures aren’t either. Fortunately, Western Muslims have developed a very enlightened version of Islam and I support it whole-heartedly and I support Western Muslim scholars like Ramadan, Hamza Yousuf and Khaled ABou Fadl. However, Islam that grew out of the Arabian culture and the Islam that is practiced in Arabic countries is very different from what many Western Muslims realise.
This is one reason I ask Western Muslims to come and spend time in Muslim countries and see for themselves how difficult it is to actually experience living amongst Muslims and under Shariah law.
I will just highlight excellent the point Tuttie makes:
“If men were constantly reminded and women wouldn't marry them or sleep with them or if they were horrendous DIVORCE them, they would change. (if they didn't what other options do they have? a prostitute? catch a disease and die and therefore eliminating themselves from the gene pool?)”
This is exactly how I would have reacted 10 years ago. But let me explain: as a Muslim woman living in a Muslim country under Shariah Law, you can’t do any of this!
Many (not all, and not some) Arab women are married off in their teens. Yes even today! Majority don’t even have the right to reject the proposal because families decide marriages and the girls are too young to be able to make a decision. You mentioned Aisha. Did she have a say in her marriage? She didn’t even know she was getting married!
And this happens in today’s Islamic world as well. It doesn’t happen in Western Muslim households but it happens every day in Muslim countries around the world. Now tell me, how will these young girls refuse marriage? Muslim men have a steady supply of young and obedient wives in Muslim countries married off by their fathers. They don’t need to go to prostitutes. Just look at what is happening in Yemen and it is NOT unIslamic. Under Islam a father has the right to marry his pre-pubescent daughter to a man. Quran even mentions what to do if a pre-pubescent girl is divorced. In Arab countries a marriage contract is arranged by the groom and the father of the bride, not the bride. The father even asks a price for the milk that the mother has fed the bride as part of Mahr. Go figure!
Similarly, a woman under Islam CANNOT refuse sex. Remember how angels will curse her? Or that she should respond to her husband’s call even if she is baking bread? Or is on a camel’s saddle ready to give birth? Now obviously one can reject these ahadith that exist in saheeh books but then we can reject everything, can’t we?
And most importantly, a Muslim woman cannot DIVORCE her husband. A man can pronounce divorce independently, a woman has to *ask* for it through her wali. If a wife doesn’t want to be divorced but the husband wants it, he CAN divorce her and that’s it. If a woman wants a divorce and the husband doesn’t want to give it – well, she has to just wait. In my cousin’s case it was for eleven years until the man died from cancer!
My point is that you can’t blame only men or only women and say that Islam is being twisted and misconstrued because the religion DOES give an awful lot of rights to men and men are just humans. They will err, they will be unfair and they will be nasty. It is not God’s way of putting them in situations to be able to punish them for erring. Giving rights to a person does not automatically make them responsible. In most cases it will have an opposite effect like the one we are discussing here.
Sorry for the long comment, LK but I live in an Arab country and go through this stuff every day.
Achelois: No I agree with you. I have had a few friends say here that you can't practice actual Islam in an "Islamic" country. That laws have been so misused, heck created from the start of Shariah, that cause way too many problems for women. Ive even gone into the Qur'an to look at where they get some of these things and the book seems to disagree but somehow they made these laws from it. In the Qur'an you need a woman's consent to marry. But they found a loophole now you dont. In the Qur'an a woman can divorce her husband and choose her husband. Theres even a story where a woman tells Muhammad that women should have the right to choose their husbands and divorce them if they are unliked. He agreed, offered to give her a divorce, she said no b/c it turned out she ended up liking the man she was forced to marry. But she wanted to make sure women had their rights. I believe this is in Aslan's book.
ReplyDeleteId never want to live in an Islamic country because I feel all my rights would be taken away. Which is sad because in the beginning we had them. Now its all gone downhill.