C: was informed this week that apparently her belief in evolution means she is not a Christian, despite her belief that Christ was God's one and only son who died for our sins so that we might be forgiven and go to heaven, which is really the only ...requirement of being a "Christian" when you get right down to it.
And I replied:yes what makes Christianity Christianity is the belief that Christ is God's son and that Jesus died to save us from original sin and bring us forgiveness. That is it, not evolution. Silly uneducated people.
I do not believe in original sin nor do I believe that Jesus is God, nor do I believe that Jesus is the direct "son" of God. No more than Adam is a son of God. I also don't believe that Jesus died to absolve our sins since I don't believe in original sin to begin with and I believe we are responsible for our sins. Otherwise that would mean that no one went to Heaven before the death of Christ because we did not have the capability to have our sins forgiven. So this can only mean one thing:
I am not Christian.
I'm not sure I ever was since I have always struggled with these concepts. But I am not a muslim.
So what am I?
O_O *so confused*
NOTE: I have no issues with anyone believing such things, it is only my personal feelings. I do not consider this train of thought wrong in any way.
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I agree with you on a lot of those points. ^_^
ReplyDeleteI believe we are all "sons and daughters" of God...I figure Jesus as the "Son of God" is more of a title, if that makes sense. A nod, if you will, to the circumstances of his birth and/or his purpose here on earth.
"Original Sin" isn't a concept taught in my church, providing I understand it correctly. That means that we are at fault for Adam and Eve's transgression, right? Yeah, that doesn't make sense - we are responsible for ourselves.
The way I understand the "Jesus paid for our sins" thing, is...hmm...more complicated now that I want to write it out, lol!
To me, it's more like Jesus had a key. Through the Atonement, he got to use this key in order to unlock heaven. Once it was unlocked, anybody who lived righteously got in. It doesn't matter that they died before Jesus used the key - they still get in. ('cause not getting in would be totally unfair and that's not the God I know ^.^).
"Though He paid for your sins, Jesus did not eliminate your agency or personal responsibility; He will not make you clean against your will."
People are responsible for themselves. The Atonement, to me, is about humility. Jesus wasn't exactly thrilled about this idea - see Matt 26:39 "And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt."
The point was that Jesus was humble enough to follow God's plan. Accepting the Atonement is like saying to God, "hey, I'm not perfect and I've made mistakes. I want to say I'm sorry." It's about being humble enough to follow God's will, even if it may not sound all that great to you. Jesus showed us how to do that. For me one of the biggest, most important things that Jesus symbolizes is hope. That there is something you can turn to when you just don't know what to do or think there's nothing you can do. Things always seem a little easier, or not so bad when someone is with you.
Did that make sense? I tried to be concise, so I hope I didn't just end up making things all confusing and junk. I love discussing* religion with people and learning from them. Truth is truth, no matter who presents it. Siddhartha had some good ideas, lol ^_^
*REAL discussions, y'know? Not the "I just want to yell at you because you don't agree with me" thing.
Totally understand.
ReplyDeleteIn the Catholic religion Jesus IS the son of God. He IS God. That is how most prodestant religions work as well. If it was metaphorical I wouldn't have as big of an issue. I can totally get behind the metaphor. Actually, the Bible is A LOT easier to understand if you take the stance that Jesus is not LITERALLY the son of God, but a great prophet. But then you would see Jesus as the muslims do. AMAZING prophet, but not God.
Original sin does stem from Adam and Eve which consequently means that knowledge is also a sin since gaining it was caused by the first sin (will post on that later). In original sin we are born with sin and some even believe the sins of our ancestors. You get baptized to wipe away these sins.
A lot of Christians use Christ's death as a way to not take responsibility for anything. But we should be responsible, or what would be the point? Jesus dying so I can go to Heaven never made sense to me. It should be based on my actions and my servitude to God, not whether or not I believe he died so my sins can be absolved. Yet I still think the crucifiction happened (Yet another post for later).
So confused lol. Just bought Merely Christianity, maybe that will help
Heh. If believing in evolution is a disqualifier for being a Christian, I'm not one either, and I know a whole lot of people who aren't. :)
ReplyDeleteMy understanding of 'original sin' and the way you describe the Christian understanding are different. Of course I've discovered that my understanding on this matter is closer to Orthodoxy than Catholicism/Protestant theology.
before I became Muslim I always thought along those lines that you mentioned. I called myself a Christian but my views on Jesus, life and death were more aligned with Islam. The day I found out some Christians believed in Jesus as God boggled my mind. As I explored my beliefs deeper I discovered I absolutely did not qualified as a Christian no matter how many times I would call myself one.
ReplyDeleteIn regards to your "nobody went to heaven before Jesus"...statement, I guess, is that the reason sacrifices were performed prior to Jesus' death was to obtain God's forgiveness of sin. Jesus is often called "the Lamb of God", and that pertains to his role as the final sacrifice. After He died, animal sacrifices were no longer necessary.
ReplyDeleteI do like what you've had to say on this, and I will read over this again later. Right now, a chicken sandwich is calling my name...this is what I get for putting off eating all day. : ) Hope you've had a good day!
Tuttie: I feel like you did. It is hard to explain but if it doesn't work for you, it doesn't work you know? I just know I can't really say I am Christian anymore.
ReplyDeleteAmber: Maybe my view on original sin is a Catholic thing. That is what I was taught and that you can't get into Heaven unless you are baptized because you still have original sin (So don't believe that either). And you need to be Christian to go to Heaven to begin with. but I also come from a house that would say "You aren't Christian, you are Catholic."
I thought the Jesus IS God thing was far more universal but perhaps it is not. Maybe that is also a Catholic thing? I know the couple of churches I attended had the same idea (Lutheran and Episcopal to be exact).
Wah more confused. There are WAY TOO MANY different Christian sects. I dunno what they all do.
Well, your persective on original sin probably is Catholic, since that's what you were raised. And a lot of Protestant denominations would likely agree as well. But it's little skewed, even from what I was taught was the Catholic position.
ReplyDeleteBaptism does not save, nor does it 'wash away' original sin. If it did, we wouldn't ever sin after that, since original sin is what causes us to be prone to sin the first place. I was taught that we can't know who is going to Heaven and who isn't, Christian, Catholic, Muslim, Hindu. It's *easier* to stay on the path if one is Christian (and especially Catholic), but the knowledge of who is bound for Heaven is God's, so we can't judge.
Jesus is God is a basic tenant of Christianity. Most denominations, plus the Catholics, and the Orthodox would agree that you're not a Christian if you don't believe that. There are other, 'fringe' groups that disagree.
As for, 'no one went to Heaven before Jesus' - when He died and descended to the dead He preached to all the dead and some followed Him and went to Heaven and others did not, and were bound for Hell. Prior to that, no one went either place.
What a thought-provoking post. I wrote a nice, long entry based off of this. *grin*
ReplyDeleteAmber - Yes I know all that. In the catholic churches I have attended and my family baptism washes away the sin you inherited from Adam and Eve but not your ability to sin. The ability to sin and original sin in this context are separate. Being born with the ability to sin does not mean you have sin on your soul at birth, original sin does.
ReplyDeleteWe sin because we have free will and the knowledge of right or wrong. Without the opposite of good, there could not be bad and there would be no choice. And if God is merciful we MUST have freedom to make our choices (I think I can finally post the theory on that at a later date). If I wasn't so tired I could reiterate one of my college thesis on the subject...but I am Le Tired.
I can't get behind the "no one went to Heaven before Jesus" concept. Never have been able to and I have read multiple opinions on the subject. Not saying its wrong, just doesn't work for me.
Heather - I read it. Good post yourself.
"Without the opposite of good, there could not be bad and there would be no choice. And if God is merciful we MUST have freedom to make our choices"
ReplyDeleteSee, I agree with this. It actually feeds into my (apparently wacky) belief that the devil is a *job* - not a rebellion.
If we didn't have another option aside from obeying God, what'd be the point of free will?
Aside from that, my perspective on the point of baptism is different from 'washing away original sin' anyway... a person can't be held accountable for a sin they didn't personally commit.
Devil is a job! I agree too!
ReplyDeleteI agree also with your last paragraph which is why the definition of original sin that I was taught, and ran into in most of my studies just not in the church but philosophy caused me issues. You cannot be held accountable for what God put in place. If you were, then God would be punishing you for something he decided for you. And that would be unmerciful.
Maybe I need to study the church you are in. Sounds a lot closer to what I think than the ones I have studied. :) I didn't get too far out of the box though. After looking at Catholic, Lutheran, Episcopal, baptist, non-denominational, and a few others I can't recall I think I just got frustrated and moved on. :) Orthodox was interesting though.
which just reminds me that I've been studying religions for over 10 years....O_O wow that is a long time.
ReplyDeleteHeh. Um...I'm actually Catholic. :) But no, my views on this don't line up with the Church. As I said, they're closer to Orthodoxy than anything else.
ReplyDelete"Heh. Um...I'm actually Catholic. :) But no, my views on this don't line up with the Church."
ReplyDeletehaha I hear that a lot. From pretty much everyone in general. I'm Christian but my views don't completely agree with the church.
I think everyone is slowing becoming agnostic LOL jk. Well all my friends are anyway...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9v7ZF-fYqaE
ReplyDeleteI didn't read the comments (sorry about that, I have to get ready for bed soon!) but from what I read in your post, I think you could very well be Christian... I don't understand Christianity that well and I guess that's what brought me to Islam.. It's so simple while Christianity is "all over the place" for me. But I learned that some parts of Islam are hard for me to understand too, even if it seems so simple. And I still think it's the truth. You could find that in Christianity.
ReplyDeleteAbout people dying before Jesus not being able to go to Heaven, I don't think it's like that. The way I understand it, when a person dies, he's in a "no time" zone. He doesn't live this time in Hell of Heaven... Judgement day has not come for anyone yet, even those who died. They will die and then find themselves in the same moment as everyone else, judgement day. So yes, Judgement day feels like it's right after death, but really even people who died a thousand years ago will have Judgement day at the exact same time as we will. That's how I see it. So it wouldn't matter if Jesus died before or after the person if he really was unlocking heaven for us. I don't know if seeing it this way would be possible under Christian belief though...
I guess it would conflict a little with praying to Saints to talk to God for us, because they are dead humans like anyone else, and will face Judgement day when we will. I see praying to Saints as useless for that... I think the only useful thing is praying for them, if you have a reason to, just for them to benefit from your thought. Making dua for them basically.
After writing this, I might not have encouraged Christianity much, but you have to know I don't understand it, and so I went with what I understand of things... I really *do* think, though, that a person can find their truth in Christianity, it just won't be the exact Christianity as practiced by most today. I feel the same about Islam. I don't believe in exactly the same things as the average Muslim. But I found my truth (parts of it, lots left to discover).
I understand what you are saying Candice. And yes I totally believe people can find their truth in Christianity. But the issue still is if you don't believe in the basis of a religion, how can you follow it? Then you really aren't following that religion, you are following something else that is similar.
ReplyDeleteI don't think any of them are perfect. Its what works best for the individual that counts. The thing that makes me so pleased about Islam is that I don't disagree with any of the major concepts. Its tiny, nitpicky things that give me issues. And there aren't many of those.
Well, I can find myself in Islam even if I don't agree with the whole of what some people think is Islam... It's still Islam to me. That's why I think you can find yourself in Christianity, even if you might not believe the same things as most of the people who consider themselves Christian.
ReplyDeleteIt's difficult though, because I don't feel right somehow to say I'm Muslim without clarifying that I believe in certain things differently... For me, the basis is there and strong enough that I am Muslim. I identify with that, not necessarily what everyone sees Islam as or even what other people who consider themselves Muslim see themselves as... I still think it works out!
I understand. I don;t identify myself as Christian at all. I say I am Catholic by association. Ive never truly felt Christian. Thats why I have looked for so long for something more.
ReplyDeleteInteresting post and comments!
ReplyDeleteThe church I used to go to tended to view the Fall as catastrophic, and hence the world today as being far from God's will or plan. It was all about God redeeming the world through Jesus, and the power in the resurrection of Jesus (which meant the ultimate victory over evil) was supposed to bring that about if we put our faith in it.
It's interesting to read the views of Christians here which are different from that.
I am tending now towards a view where this life including all its suffering is redemptive in itself. Or can be; that's up to us. I think there is goodness and badness all mixed up in the world, and our purpose is to cultivate more goodness. I don't see it as black-and-white as I used to. I guess I find it hard to see a role for Jesus in the picture, besides being a warner and bringer of good tidings and amazing teacher.
Yeah I see things similar to you. I think that is why Christianity confuses me so. Seeing things in black for white never made sense since the world obviously does not function that way. Things have a much broader scope.
ReplyDeleteActually, I don't know if someone said this or not, but not all christians believe in the "trinity". They are non-trinitarian christians. My parents are christians and don't believe in the trinity. My parents never taught it to me. I learned about it in sunday scool and youth group and never believed it!
ReplyDelete