NOT making a deep, inner post. :) And yes I have known about this "sin" for awhile. I just want to know if anyone knows where i might find info on what exactly this sin is referring. Because if it refers to what it could refer to, I'm done.
I also want to know why it isn't just written as idolatry because that is the sin they are talking about, not art.
Thanks ladies :)
Salaam
Posts
Yeah, that + music was a large part of what contributed to my walking away (plus, y'know, the Jesus thing :P ). I'm really into photography so was like "I can't put my photos up? I can't have photos of my family? Say what?" and dancing is something I couldn't stop if I tried, lol.
ReplyDeleteI believe Pixie at I Love Hishma wrote something about this at some point...I'll see if I can find it... (I did my research on this ages ago and now don't remember my sources! X_X)
http://ilovehishmatheblog.blogspot.com/2009/04/abaya-dont-dont-wear-imagesfaces.html
ReplyDeleteIt references the hadith this "sin" is mentioned in. I totally can't remember any other sources right now X_X sorry! I'll go back through my notes, etc later when I have more time to be really in depth. Unless somebody comments in the meantime and does a much better job. Quite likely. :)
Yeah thats different though. Thats about not giving an image to a Prophet which is techincally wrong in christianity as well...but we stopped doing it. The music thing is also 100% NOT proven and many scholars disagree that it means all music. I know classical music is not haram. Rap and anything that talks about rape, killing, degrades women etc is haram. It also has to do with not allowing your emotions to be affected by anything other than God. Personally, I do not know a single muslim that actually takes that hadith as 100% truth and they all listen to some type of music.
ReplyDeleteThats the thing I want the hadith that says ART is haram. Can't find it? why? Because it DOESNT EXIST. Depicting a prophet with a face is haram and I agree. That is disrespectful and you run the risk of people worshiping the image. It also makes the prophet more universal ( aka no ethinicity without features). One definitely should NOT give form to God. That is awful.
Idolatry is what they speak of, so why isn't it "Making idols or idolatry" instead of "making pictures and statues"?
I know a lot of scholars disagree with it being all art and that it relates to idolatry...I just wish I could find the info.
LK,
ReplyDeleteI'm sure you've got all these, but these are the ahadith that come up when I question the all knowing google :) (I totally just copied and pasted from various places):
Narrated Said bin Abu Al-Hasan: While I was with Ibn ‘Abbas a man came and said, “O father of ‘Abbas! My sustenance is from my manual profession and I make these pictures.” Ibn ‘Abbas said, “I will tell you only what I heard from Allah’s Apostle. I heard him saying, ‘Whoever makes a picture will be punished by Allah till he puts life in it, and he will never be able to put life in it.’ “Hearing this, that man heaved a sigh and his face turned pale. Ibn ‘Abbas said to him, “What a pity! If you insist on making pictures I advise you to make pictures of trees and any other unanimated objects.” (Volume 3, Book 34, Number 428: Sahih Bukhari)
Ibn ‘Umar reported Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) having said: Those who paint pictures would be punished on the Day of Resurrection and it would be said to them: Breathe soul into what you have created.(Chapter 19, Book 024, Number 5268: Sahih Muslim)
Narrated Ali ibn AbuTalib: The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: The angels do not enter a house which contains a picture, a dog, or a man who is impure by sexual defilement. (Book 32, Number 4140: Sunan Abu-Dawud)
Narrated Aisha:(mother of the faithful believers) I bought a cushion with pictures on it. When Allah’s Apostle saw it, he kept standing at the door and did not enter the house. I noticed the sign of disgust on his face, so I said, “O Allah’s Apostle! I repent to Allah and His Apostle. (Please let me know) what sin I have done.” Allah’s Apostle said, “What about this cushion?” I replied, “I bought it for you to sit and recline on.” Allah’s Apostle said, “The painters (i.e. owners) of these pictures will be punished on the Day of Resurrection. It will be said to them, ‘Put life in what you have created (i.e. painted).’” The Prophet added, “The angels do not enter a house where there are pictures.” (Volume 3, Book 34, Number 318: Sahih Bukhari)
~~~~~
I'll say that the no art/no music/somehow *dogs* are bad(?wth?)(mostly it was the dog thing. Any angel that won't come near a dog? Not an angel.) things were among the first that made me go, 'huh, well that'll never work for me....' But all the things I've found seem to point to it being anything living that's meant to be forbidden, not just prophets. And I've never seen anything arguing against it being all living images, so I can't help there, sorry.
Yeah Ive seen these. I asked my muslim friends if it was against Islam to draw figures and they looked at me like I was nuts. They were all "um no, you just can't give prophets faces or draw God." So I'm not really sure what the ruling is.
ReplyDeleteI have to find an actual lecture on this and get it figured out once and for all. Because if it is haram
1) Most muslims seem to have no idea its haram to draw all human figures or creatures of God. Most seem to apply it to prophets, God, and idolatry.
2) All those muslim children's books with drawings are haram. Same goes for instructional books on how to pray. Any cartoon depicting a human being drawn by a muslim is haram. All photos any muslim has taken including ones of him/herself is haram. You can't ever take an art class because if you do you might do something haram. You better be careful that whenever you take a photo a live creature doesn't end up in it haram. haram haram haram.....Ok I think you see how silly I feel this line of thinking is.
3) asking me not to do art is like asking someone to not breathe.
The dog thing hurt for a LONG time. It still hurts and I'm trying to find a loop hole. But I'm sure their is none. You can own a dog if it lives outside, it just can't come in. They bring in dirt and germs from outside. It has a lot to do with what they like to sniff on other dogs too. It is due to keeping the home clean and suitable for prayer.
The music thing is sooooo loose that most don't follow it because even scholars are all " I don't think that hadith was really meaning music". Most people avoid things with lude/ haram content. I don't know any muslim that has cut out music all together...except for his parents. But they will listen to classical music because it is permitted. The music thing is usually enforced in mixed company to avoid breakouts of dancing. Because if you play music in public you most certainly will break out into a dance number (Jai Ho!)
Oh Im sorry, how impolite. THANK YOU! I appreciate you finding these.
ReplyDeleteNot that this is really related, but I found out this week that most people in Syria don't put up pictures in their house -- I mean pictures of people like we would do here in the US ESPECIALLY if they are pictures of women. I just found that kind of interesting. No pictures of mom or sister or niece .. if anything, just a picture of dad or brother. I find all this cultural stuff rather interesting/cute!
ReplyDeleteTeehe yeah that is cultural because if you go into a Pakistani household there are photos everywhere! All appropriate though, like the women have their veils on and stuff. They don't even take photos in some places like Saudi Arabia. But again, culture.
ReplyDeleteHere is my solution because it seems now everyone is like "oooo is this haram? REALLY?" : I am going to try to do both of the following:
Find a lecture on this subject. I would love to find one that agrees with my position and one that does not.
I am going to try to contact scholars. I will have to prod my muslim friends for suggestions but maybe they can help me locate the email of one who can help.
Once I have this info I will put up a lovely post with an answer. I know this subject may seem unimportant but to an artist her ability to draw is life. And if I cannot then Islam is not for me. Plain and simple. So I want to exhaust my resources before I make a decision on the subject.
Thank you everyone for your help!
LK, here are my thoughts. If God gave you a talent then you should use it. He gives some the ability to sing beautifully and they should sing *for His glory.* I think that is the main key. Use your talent to bring honor to Him. If you find you are drawing things that you KNOW would displease God (e.g. nudity) then don't do those things. The same with singing (e.g. songs about adultery would be bad). I think with anything, we can use it for God's glory or for our own and the former is good while the latter is not.
ReplyDeleteThanks for sharing about Pakistani culture. Again, I find it all so interesting! :)
Agreed Susanne. I think you hit the nail on the head. I am ok with not drawing things that would displease God. But already my comic has helped so many understand hijab and muslim women so how can those drawings be haram?
ReplyDeleteI will get to the bottom of it all, I will!
Here is an article you might find interesting (haven't read all of it I'm afraid but I got it from someone I trust!)
ReplyDeletehttp://www.monthly-renaissance.com/issue/content.aspx?id=962
Sarah I have tears of joy. Thank you so much, that just confirmed my theory. I will still gather info but this article is truly amazing.
ReplyDeleteI think that as long as it does not create the temptation of idol-worship or other haram things, pictures, statues, music, etc. are all acceptable. They can bring such positive things to our lives...
ReplyDeleteAbout dogs, I don't think they are haram either... Here is a link. This is from submission.org though. Remember that they are into the "code 19" which is really a load of crap, but that they are also into seeing Islam from a Qur'anic point of view, so I take some and leave some when it comes to their articles... And this is something I "took". Dogs are mentionned in the Qur'an, and never in a way prohibiting them.
http://www.submission.org/pets/dogs.html
Thanks Candice!
ReplyDeleteThat is the first positive thing I have read about dogs and Islam. I was sorta thinking it was odd that the Qur'an would mention them in a positive format, then negetive. I wonder if some of the ayat and hadiths against dogs have translation errors.
Still won't matter though. Most feel dogs are bad so if I ever married and was muslim I still couldn't have one unless he lived outside :(. And I would feel bad for the poor thing living outside, poor doggy.
LOL the dog lived outside, not my husband LOL
ReplyDelete*sigh* I know that not all Muslims use this hadith as an excuse to be cruel to dogs, but some do, and quite frankly, that's enough to make me back way the heck off. Is that rational? No, probably not. But when you read stories about blind people who can't get picked up in taxis because the Muslim drivers won't take their seeing eye dogs, or the man who had to leave his dorm because the Muslims on campus were threatening his service dog... honestly, they disgust me.
ReplyDeleteAnd I *know* it's the people and their interpretation of the source material. Doesn't change my reaction.
You are TOTALLY allowed to have a service dog! Those people were being ignorant. I have the same reaction to those types of situations. It is just plain wrong.
ReplyDeletePeople often do what they are told or what is passed down from their families. No one said it was rational, because its not. In fact, its so far the only completely irrational thing I have found. They do it because they don't know any better and they are taught to fear them. Same with music and art. They never learned for themselves the truth. They are ok with being uneducated on the subject.
Most muslims I know wont be mean to dogs. A lot of them like dogs they just wouldn't own one because they are considered dirty. Also silly because I find a cat to be dirtier than a dog. Cats leave hairballs and walk on your counters (uck).
I know it's not all Muslims, really, I do. It's just a gigantic pet peeve. I have a non-existant tolerance for animal cruelty in anybody.
ReplyDeleteI've wondered about the cat thing too, I mean, have they seen how a cat cleans itself? Do they know that the cat buries it's waste? Therefore likely getting it on their paws and then all over your house? That being said, I have six cats. But they have their own room/converted garage. The dogs get the run of the house.
No agree with you, some people are cruel.
ReplyDeleteIf I had a cat it would need to learn to not go on my counters lol. Then Id be fine with it. They are relatively clean animals, some even wipe their paws after using the liter box which is so darn cute!